Would “destroying” Wurmcoil Engine prevent its tokens from being created? Planned...

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Would “destroying” Wurmcoil Engine prevent its tokens from being created?



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8















I attacked with Wurmcoil Engine and my friend blocked with Stinkweed Imp which has the ability "Whenever Stinkweed Imp deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature." My friend argues that it destroys Wurmcoil Engine and does not "die" and is instead moved directly into the graveyard. I argue that the tokens will still be created because the creature hits the graveyard and no matter how it got there, it still counts as a "death" so it gets the tokens. We're still confused, what's the rule?










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    8















    I attacked with Wurmcoil Engine and my friend blocked with Stinkweed Imp which has the ability "Whenever Stinkweed Imp deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature." My friend argues that it destroys Wurmcoil Engine and does not "die" and is instead moved directly into the graveyard. I argue that the tokens will still be created because the creature hits the graveyard and no matter how it got there, it still counts as a "death" so it gets the tokens. We're still confused, what's the rule?










    share|improve this question









    New contributor




    Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.























      8












      8








      8








      I attacked with Wurmcoil Engine and my friend blocked with Stinkweed Imp which has the ability "Whenever Stinkweed Imp deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature." My friend argues that it destroys Wurmcoil Engine and does not "die" and is instead moved directly into the graveyard. I argue that the tokens will still be created because the creature hits the graveyard and no matter how it got there, it still counts as a "death" so it gets the tokens. We're still confused, what's the rule?










      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.












      I attacked with Wurmcoil Engine and my friend blocked with Stinkweed Imp which has the ability "Whenever Stinkweed Imp deals combat damage to a creature, destroy that creature." My friend argues that it destroys Wurmcoil Engine and does not "die" and is instead moved directly into the graveyard. I argue that the tokens will still be created because the creature hits the graveyard and no matter how it got there, it still counts as a "death" so it gets the tokens. We're still confused, what's the rule?







      magic-the-gathering






      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      share|improve this question









      New contributor




      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited 17 hours ago









      Zags

      7,69831765




      7,69831765






      New contributor




      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      asked 23 hours ago









      Zane MartinZane Martin

      412




      412




      New contributor




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      New contributor





      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Zane Martin is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          15














          Destroying Wurmcoil Engine will definitely cause it to create tokens. Destroying something causes it to go to the graveyard, and "when Wurmcoil Engine dies" means "when Wurmcoil Engine is put in the graveyard from the battlefield":




          701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



          700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."




          On top of that, destroying Wurmcoil Engine is the most common cause of its tokens being created. Your friend is probably thinking of "destroying" a creature as something different from "dealing it lethal damage", but dealing lethal damage to a creature literally causes that creatrue to be destroyed:




          704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.




          This rule is really important because it is why "indestructible" prevents creatures from dying to lethal damage.



          If you want to prevent Wurmcoil Engine from creating tokens, you need to do one of the following:




          • Have Wurmcoil go somewhere other than the graveyard, such as with Path to Exile or Unsummon

          • Remove Wurmcoil's abilities, such as with Ovinize

          • Prevent the trigger from resolving, such as with Trickbind






          share|improve this answer


























          • You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago











          • @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago













          • My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago











          • @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago





















          3














          Destroying Wurmcoil Engine triggers its ability




          700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”




          Anything that causes a creature or planeswalker to move from the battlefield to the graveyard will trigger "dies" effects.



          If you want to avoid the trigger you need to use a card that moves the creature to another zone instead, such as Disintegrate.






          share|improve this answer


























          • Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

            – Zags
            17 hours ago











          • @Zags excellent suggestion

            – Arcanist Lupus
            16 hours ago



















          0














          Wurmcoil Engine will die in this scenario, so you'll get the tokens. From the Comprehensive Rules:




          701.7. Destroy



          701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



          700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."







          share|improve this answer































            0














            From the comprehensive rules:




            Destroy

            To move a permanent from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. See rule 701.7, "Destroy."



            Dies

            A creature or planeswalker "dies" if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. See rule 700.4.




            So for creatures, "dies" and "is destroyed" are synonymous. In fact, if you look at the version of Wurmcoil Engine from Scars of Mirrodin, it even uses "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" rather than the shorthand "dies". So you do get the tokens.






            share|improve this answer



















            • 2





              It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

              – murgatroid99
              22 hours ago












            Your Answer








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            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes








            4 Answers
            4






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            15














            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine will definitely cause it to create tokens. Destroying something causes it to go to the graveyard, and "when Wurmcoil Engine dies" means "when Wurmcoil Engine is put in the graveyard from the battlefield":




            701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



            700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."




            On top of that, destroying Wurmcoil Engine is the most common cause of its tokens being created. Your friend is probably thinking of "destroying" a creature as something different from "dealing it lethal damage", but dealing lethal damage to a creature literally causes that creatrue to be destroyed:




            704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.




            This rule is really important because it is why "indestructible" prevents creatures from dying to lethal damage.



            If you want to prevent Wurmcoil Engine from creating tokens, you need to do one of the following:




            • Have Wurmcoil go somewhere other than the graveyard, such as with Path to Exile or Unsummon

            • Remove Wurmcoil's abilities, such as with Ovinize

            • Prevent the trigger from resolving, such as with Trickbind






            share|improve this answer


























            • You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago













            • My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago


















            15














            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine will definitely cause it to create tokens. Destroying something causes it to go to the graveyard, and "when Wurmcoil Engine dies" means "when Wurmcoil Engine is put in the graveyard from the battlefield":




            701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



            700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."




            On top of that, destroying Wurmcoil Engine is the most common cause of its tokens being created. Your friend is probably thinking of "destroying" a creature as something different from "dealing it lethal damage", but dealing lethal damage to a creature literally causes that creatrue to be destroyed:




            704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.




            This rule is really important because it is why "indestructible" prevents creatures from dying to lethal damage.



            If you want to prevent Wurmcoil Engine from creating tokens, you need to do one of the following:




            • Have Wurmcoil go somewhere other than the graveyard, such as with Path to Exile or Unsummon

            • Remove Wurmcoil's abilities, such as with Ovinize

            • Prevent the trigger from resolving, such as with Trickbind






            share|improve this answer


























            • You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago













            • My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago
















            15












            15








            15







            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine will definitely cause it to create tokens. Destroying something causes it to go to the graveyard, and "when Wurmcoil Engine dies" means "when Wurmcoil Engine is put in the graveyard from the battlefield":




            701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



            700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."




            On top of that, destroying Wurmcoil Engine is the most common cause of its tokens being created. Your friend is probably thinking of "destroying" a creature as something different from "dealing it lethal damage", but dealing lethal damage to a creature literally causes that creatrue to be destroyed:




            704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.




            This rule is really important because it is why "indestructible" prevents creatures from dying to lethal damage.



            If you want to prevent Wurmcoil Engine from creating tokens, you need to do one of the following:




            • Have Wurmcoil go somewhere other than the graveyard, such as with Path to Exile or Unsummon

            • Remove Wurmcoil's abilities, such as with Ovinize

            • Prevent the trigger from resolving, such as with Trickbind






            share|improve this answer















            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine will definitely cause it to create tokens. Destroying something causes it to go to the graveyard, and "when Wurmcoil Engine dies" means "when Wurmcoil Engine is put in the graveyard from the battlefield":




            701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



            700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."




            On top of that, destroying Wurmcoil Engine is the most common cause of its tokens being created. Your friend is probably thinking of "destroying" a creature as something different from "dealing it lethal damage", but dealing lethal damage to a creature literally causes that creatrue to be destroyed:




            704.5g If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed.




            This rule is really important because it is why "indestructible" prevents creatures from dying to lethal damage.



            If you want to prevent Wurmcoil Engine from creating tokens, you need to do one of the following:




            • Have Wurmcoil go somewhere other than the graveyard, such as with Path to Exile or Unsummon

            • Remove Wurmcoil's abilities, such as with Ovinize

            • Prevent the trigger from resolving, such as with Trickbind







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 17 hours ago

























            answered 18 hours ago









            ZagsZags

            7,69831765




            7,69831765













            • You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago













            • My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago





















            • You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago













            • My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

              – corsiKa
              4 hours ago











            • @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

              – Zags
              4 hours ago



















            You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago





            You forgot the easiest way to prevent Wurmcoil from creating tokens: concede.

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago













            @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago







            @corsiKa I would argue that conceding is just one mechanism of preventing the trigger from resolving (as the game ends). Door to Nothingness actually works better, because conceding doesn't prevent the trigger in multiplayer.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago















            My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago





            My comment was a tad tongue in cheek - I've seen more than one snap-scoop to a resolved wurmcoil, especially when it was still in standard!

            – corsiKa
            4 hours ago













            @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago







            @corsiKa Its also a valid point. I did list Door to Nothingess as a way to counter uncountable spells over here: boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/24134/9999, but in that case, it was mechanically different from the other things in the list.

            – Zags
            4 hours ago













            3














            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine triggers its ability




            700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”




            Anything that causes a creature or planeswalker to move from the battlefield to the graveyard will trigger "dies" effects.



            If you want to avoid the trigger you need to use a card that moves the creature to another zone instead, such as Disintegrate.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

              – Zags
              17 hours ago











            • @Zags excellent suggestion

              – Arcanist Lupus
              16 hours ago
















            3














            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine triggers its ability




            700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”




            Anything that causes a creature or planeswalker to move from the battlefield to the graveyard will trigger "dies" effects.



            If you want to avoid the trigger you need to use a card that moves the creature to another zone instead, such as Disintegrate.






            share|improve this answer


























            • Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

              – Zags
              17 hours ago











            • @Zags excellent suggestion

              – Arcanist Lupus
              16 hours ago














            3












            3








            3







            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine triggers its ability




            700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”




            Anything that causes a creature or planeswalker to move from the battlefield to the graveyard will trigger "dies" effects.



            If you want to avoid the trigger you need to use a card that moves the creature to another zone instead, such as Disintegrate.






            share|improve this answer















            Destroying Wurmcoil Engine triggers its ability




            700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”




            Anything that causes a creature or planeswalker to move from the battlefield to the graveyard will trigger "dies" effects.



            If you want to avoid the trigger you need to use a card that moves the creature to another zone instead, such as Disintegrate.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited 16 hours ago

























            answered 22 hours ago









            Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus

            4,4751824




            4,4751824













            • Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

              – Zags
              17 hours ago











            • @Zags excellent suggestion

              – Arcanist Lupus
              16 hours ago



















            • Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

              – Zags
              17 hours ago











            • @Zags excellent suggestion

              – Arcanist Lupus
              16 hours ago

















            Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

            – Zags
            17 hours ago





            Maybe use "Disintegrate" instead of "Annihilating Fire" (given Wurmcoil has 6 toughness)

            – Zags
            17 hours ago













            @Zags excellent suggestion

            – Arcanist Lupus
            16 hours ago





            @Zags excellent suggestion

            – Arcanist Lupus
            16 hours ago











            0














            Wurmcoil Engine will die in this scenario, so you'll get the tokens. From the Comprehensive Rules:




            701.7. Destroy



            701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



            700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."







            share|improve this answer




























              0














              Wurmcoil Engine will die in this scenario, so you'll get the tokens. From the Comprehensive Rules:




              701.7. Destroy



              701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



              700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."







              share|improve this answer


























                0












                0








                0







                Wurmcoil Engine will die in this scenario, so you'll get the tokens. From the Comprehensive Rules:




                701.7. Destroy



                701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."







                share|improve this answer













                Wurmcoil Engine will die in this scenario, so you'll get the tokens. From the Comprehensive Rules:




                701.7. Destroy



                701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                700.4. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield."








                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 23 hours ago









                GlorfindelGlorfindel

                6,19611944




                6,19611944























                    0














                    From the comprehensive rules:




                    Destroy

                    To move a permanent from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. See rule 701.7, "Destroy."



                    Dies

                    A creature or planeswalker "dies" if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. See rule 700.4.




                    So for creatures, "dies" and "is destroyed" are synonymous. In fact, if you look at the version of Wurmcoil Engine from Scars of Mirrodin, it even uses "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" rather than the shorthand "dies". So you do get the tokens.






                    share|improve this answer



















                    • 2





                      It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                      – murgatroid99
                      22 hours ago
















                    0














                    From the comprehensive rules:




                    Destroy

                    To move a permanent from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. See rule 701.7, "Destroy."



                    Dies

                    A creature or planeswalker "dies" if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. See rule 700.4.




                    So for creatures, "dies" and "is destroyed" are synonymous. In fact, if you look at the version of Wurmcoil Engine from Scars of Mirrodin, it even uses "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" rather than the shorthand "dies". So you do get the tokens.






                    share|improve this answer



















                    • 2





                      It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                      – murgatroid99
                      22 hours ago














                    0












                    0








                    0







                    From the comprehensive rules:




                    Destroy

                    To move a permanent from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. See rule 701.7, "Destroy."



                    Dies

                    A creature or planeswalker "dies" if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. See rule 700.4.




                    So for creatures, "dies" and "is destroyed" are synonymous. In fact, if you look at the version of Wurmcoil Engine from Scars of Mirrodin, it even uses "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" rather than the shorthand "dies". So you do get the tokens.






                    share|improve this answer













                    From the comprehensive rules:




                    Destroy

                    To move a permanent from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard. See rule 701.7, "Destroy."



                    Dies

                    A creature or planeswalker "dies" if it is put into a graveyard from the battlefield. See rule 700.4.




                    So for creatures, "dies" and "is destroyed" are synonymous. In fact, if you look at the version of Wurmcoil Engine from Scars of Mirrodin, it even uses "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield" rather than the shorthand "dies". So you do get the tokens.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 22 hours ago









                    ConManConMan

                    7,2772343




                    7,2772343








                    • 2





                      It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                      – murgatroid99
                      22 hours ago














                    • 2





                      It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                      – murgatroid99
                      22 hours ago








                    2




                    2





                    It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                    – murgatroid99
                    22 hours ago





                    It's not accurate to say that the two words are synonyms. The glossary overgeneralizes somewhat here. It's possible for a creature to be destroyed without dying (e.g. if a replacement effect exiles it) and it's possible for a creature to die without being destroyed (e.g. if it dies from having 0 toughness).

                    – murgatroid99
                    22 hours ago










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