Why wasn't DOSKEY integrated with COMMAND.COM? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate...
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Why wasn't DOSKEY integrated with COMMAND.COM?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)How does the command.com shell work with MS-DOS?How does the command.com shell work with MS-DOS?Where and what was Haunt.bat? A game pre-loaded on a c1992 PCIs there a simple way to display ANSI art and animation files in a modern terminal window?Was it Microsoft that started the war between Application and OS vendors?What to do about “Invalid media type”Is DOS being shipped with or as an installed OS?TSRs at top of memory conflicting with COMMAND.COMWhat are my options for multitasking in MS-DOS 5.0 on an 80186 with EMS?DOS, create pipe for stdin/stdout of command.com(or 4dos.com) in C or Batch?DOS/4DOS Prompt with animated characters?
Why did Microsoft make DOSKEY
a separate command, instead of integrating it with COMMAND.COM
?
I don't think DOSKEY
uses a lot of RAM or was useless in the '80s... Maybe there was another reason not to enable this command automatically?
ms-dos
add a comment |
Why did Microsoft make DOSKEY
a separate command, instead of integrating it with COMMAND.COM
?
I don't think DOSKEY
uses a lot of RAM or was useless in the '80s... Maybe there was another reason not to enable this command automatically?
ms-dos
7
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Why did Microsoft make DOSKEY
a separate command, instead of integrating it with COMMAND.COM
?
I don't think DOSKEY
uses a lot of RAM or was useless in the '80s... Maybe there was another reason not to enable this command automatically?
ms-dos
Why did Microsoft make DOSKEY
a separate command, instead of integrating it with COMMAND.COM
?
I don't think DOSKEY
uses a lot of RAM or was useless in the '80s... Maybe there was another reason not to enable this command automatically?
ms-dos
ms-dos
edited 7 hours ago
Raffzahn
56.8k6138230
56.8k6138230
asked 16 hours ago
user7710user7710
1365
1365
7
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago
add a comment |
7
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago
7
7
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
I can think of a number of reasons:
DOSKEY
isn’t specifically tied toCOMMAND.COM
; it provides history for any program which uses the same input functions asCOMMAND.COM
, and one could imagine wanting to runDOSKEY
with another command interpreter (although the most popular alternative command interpreter, 4DOS, already included equivalent features);
DOSKEY
was introduced late in MS-DOS’s life, in version 5 (1991); since it changed input handling (with its macro support in particular), the MS-DOS developers might have thought that some users wouldn’t want it, or that it could break things (backward compatibility was already very important for Microsoft by that time);- memory really was tight in DOS, even with the support for UMBs introduced in DOS 5.
The first reason is really sufficient from my point of view: input editing isn’t handled in COMMAND.COM
, so improving it in COMMAND.COM
wouldn’t have made much sense.
It turns out DOSKEY
’s developers forgot one important feature of the DOS input routine (it’s supposed to handle the date change at midnight), so making it optional turned out to have been a good idea!
(There were a number of history-providing TSRs already available then, but that wouldn’t have been a consideration for Microsoft.)
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Well, first of all, isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?
- Basic DOS is supposed to run on small machines, thus a small footprint is a major reason. Making everything non essential (and user convenience is) optional helps
- Not every User might like or even need it
- There might be scenarios where DOSKEY is harmful
- DOSKEY is - like many other 'comforting' add-ons - a late comer.
- Did I already mention RAM size? Even with full 640 KiB (and UMB), DOS memory was quite challenged when DOSKEY became available.
- Even if it's 'just' a few KiB, it could really be a drain.
Long story short, having a configurable system to be tailored to each job needed is quite an advantage worth paying the price of a few bytes wasted for headers and duplicate code plus a few milliseconds during boot.
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
The early architecture of COMMAND.COM (based on detailed analysis of DOS 2.1 a long, long time ago) was that a program requesting maximum memory could overwrite all of COMMAND.COM except a tiny portion which would reload from disk on termination.
By the time DOS 5 was released, 1MB RAM was not uncommon, so this motivation had gone.
But Windows 3.0 was released before DOS 5 and Microsoft started pushing for everyone to run Windows all the time, rather than just loading Windows 2.1 runtime for Excel or Pagemaker.
Windows 3.0 loaded on top of DOS, and it was common to open a DOS box or run batch files within it. Any bloat in COMMAND.COM would be loaded multiple times.
So I suggest that integrating functionality to COMMAND.COM would have been an unwise architectural choice in those days.
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
When MS-DOS 5.0 launched, Microsoft made the new features of DOSKEY a selling point of the new O/S, one of several improvements which made it seem worthwhile to buy the new version rather than stick with MS-DOS 3, which many users (me!) were still running.
MS-DOS 4 had not been exactly a blazing success (in terms of persuading consumers to part with their cash). I don't seem to be able to recall it having any particular benefits, over and above MS-DOS 3 (hence I went direct from MS-DOS 3 to 5), whereas the competition from new versions of PC-DOS and DR-DOS was pretty hot.
Microsoft were as much about making change for the sake of it, just to seem to be doing something, with MS-DOS 4—whilst also battling with the competition on the GUI platform, with Windows 3.1 getting launched about that same time.
All the software companies were desperate to show beleaguered users that command-line operating systems could be easy to use, given that users could not jump onto a GUI easily (Windows 2 was a real clunker, and no one other than Microsoft was seriously trying to develop a PC-based graphical user O/S).
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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4 Answers
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active
oldest
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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oldest
votes
I can think of a number of reasons:
DOSKEY
isn’t specifically tied toCOMMAND.COM
; it provides history for any program which uses the same input functions asCOMMAND.COM
, and one could imagine wanting to runDOSKEY
with another command interpreter (although the most popular alternative command interpreter, 4DOS, already included equivalent features);
DOSKEY
was introduced late in MS-DOS’s life, in version 5 (1991); since it changed input handling (with its macro support in particular), the MS-DOS developers might have thought that some users wouldn’t want it, or that it could break things (backward compatibility was already very important for Microsoft by that time);- memory really was tight in DOS, even with the support for UMBs introduced in DOS 5.
The first reason is really sufficient from my point of view: input editing isn’t handled in COMMAND.COM
, so improving it in COMMAND.COM
wouldn’t have made much sense.
It turns out DOSKEY
’s developers forgot one important feature of the DOS input routine (it’s supposed to handle the date change at midnight), so making it optional turned out to have been a good idea!
(There were a number of history-providing TSRs already available then, but that wouldn’t have been a consideration for Microsoft.)
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I can think of a number of reasons:
DOSKEY
isn’t specifically tied toCOMMAND.COM
; it provides history for any program which uses the same input functions asCOMMAND.COM
, and one could imagine wanting to runDOSKEY
with another command interpreter (although the most popular alternative command interpreter, 4DOS, already included equivalent features);
DOSKEY
was introduced late in MS-DOS’s life, in version 5 (1991); since it changed input handling (with its macro support in particular), the MS-DOS developers might have thought that some users wouldn’t want it, or that it could break things (backward compatibility was already very important for Microsoft by that time);- memory really was tight in DOS, even with the support for UMBs introduced in DOS 5.
The first reason is really sufficient from my point of view: input editing isn’t handled in COMMAND.COM
, so improving it in COMMAND.COM
wouldn’t have made much sense.
It turns out DOSKEY
’s developers forgot one important feature of the DOS input routine (it’s supposed to handle the date change at midnight), so making it optional turned out to have been a good idea!
(There were a number of history-providing TSRs already available then, but that wouldn’t have been a consideration for Microsoft.)
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
I can think of a number of reasons:
DOSKEY
isn’t specifically tied toCOMMAND.COM
; it provides history for any program which uses the same input functions asCOMMAND.COM
, and one could imagine wanting to runDOSKEY
with another command interpreter (although the most popular alternative command interpreter, 4DOS, already included equivalent features);
DOSKEY
was introduced late in MS-DOS’s life, in version 5 (1991); since it changed input handling (with its macro support in particular), the MS-DOS developers might have thought that some users wouldn’t want it, or that it could break things (backward compatibility was already very important for Microsoft by that time);- memory really was tight in DOS, even with the support for UMBs introduced in DOS 5.
The first reason is really sufficient from my point of view: input editing isn’t handled in COMMAND.COM
, so improving it in COMMAND.COM
wouldn’t have made much sense.
It turns out DOSKEY
’s developers forgot one important feature of the DOS input routine (it’s supposed to handle the date change at midnight), so making it optional turned out to have been a good idea!
(There were a number of history-providing TSRs already available then, but that wouldn’t have been a consideration for Microsoft.)
I can think of a number of reasons:
DOSKEY
isn’t specifically tied toCOMMAND.COM
; it provides history for any program which uses the same input functions asCOMMAND.COM
, and one could imagine wanting to runDOSKEY
with another command interpreter (although the most popular alternative command interpreter, 4DOS, already included equivalent features);
DOSKEY
was introduced late in MS-DOS’s life, in version 5 (1991); since it changed input handling (with its macro support in particular), the MS-DOS developers might have thought that some users wouldn’t want it, or that it could break things (backward compatibility was already very important for Microsoft by that time);- memory really was tight in DOS, even with the support for UMBs introduced in DOS 5.
The first reason is really sufficient from my point of view: input editing isn’t handled in COMMAND.COM
, so improving it in COMMAND.COM
wouldn’t have made much sense.
It turns out DOSKEY
’s developers forgot one important feature of the DOS input routine (it’s supposed to handle the date change at midnight), so making it optional turned out to have been a good idea!
(There were a number of history-providing TSRs already available then, but that wouldn’t have been a consideration for Microsoft.)
edited 15 hours ago
answered 16 hours ago
Stephen KittStephen Kitt
40.7k8166175
40.7k8166175
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Stephen, you beat me again :)) And with a great answer. If there is any point in my writeup you find useful, feel ree to integrate it into your answer so I can delete mine.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
Oh, I see. I initially failed to make the connection between that link at the top, and the paragraph towards the bottom. You mean that the interrupt service routine was modified to handle a global, system-level function, not that it did something like modifying dates in the command line that was typed. Thanks; removing my initial comment.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
@Raffzahn thanks, I think your answer is useful too ;-).
– Stephen Kitt
12 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I'd consider it a duplicate for most parts - but yeah, I'm not deleting it, as this would also remove the rather high quality comments made so far.
– Raffzahn
10 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
I think your last paragraph is the most important one: There were third party and freeware tools that did what DOSKEY was to provide - And MS maybe could not accept third-party software so close to theirs, so simply adopted the idea.
– tofro
9 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
Well, first of all, isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?
- Basic DOS is supposed to run on small machines, thus a small footprint is a major reason. Making everything non essential (and user convenience is) optional helps
- Not every User might like or even need it
- There might be scenarios where DOSKEY is harmful
- DOSKEY is - like many other 'comforting' add-ons - a late comer.
- Did I already mention RAM size? Even with full 640 KiB (and UMB), DOS memory was quite challenged when DOSKEY became available.
- Even if it's 'just' a few KiB, it could really be a drain.
Long story short, having a configurable system to be tailored to each job needed is quite an advantage worth paying the price of a few bytes wasted for headers and duplicate code plus a few milliseconds during boot.
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Well, first of all, isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?
- Basic DOS is supposed to run on small machines, thus a small footprint is a major reason. Making everything non essential (and user convenience is) optional helps
- Not every User might like or even need it
- There might be scenarios where DOSKEY is harmful
- DOSKEY is - like many other 'comforting' add-ons - a late comer.
- Did I already mention RAM size? Even with full 640 KiB (and UMB), DOS memory was quite challenged when DOSKEY became available.
- Even if it's 'just' a few KiB, it could really be a drain.
Long story short, having a configurable system to be tailored to each job needed is quite an advantage worth paying the price of a few bytes wasted for headers and duplicate code plus a few milliseconds during boot.
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Well, first of all, isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?
- Basic DOS is supposed to run on small machines, thus a small footprint is a major reason. Making everything non essential (and user convenience is) optional helps
- Not every User might like or even need it
- There might be scenarios where DOSKEY is harmful
- DOSKEY is - like many other 'comforting' add-ons - a late comer.
- Did I already mention RAM size? Even with full 640 KiB (and UMB), DOS memory was quite challenged when DOSKEY became available.
- Even if it's 'just' a few KiB, it could really be a drain.
Long story short, having a configurable system to be tailored to each job needed is quite an advantage worth paying the price of a few bytes wasted for headers and duplicate code plus a few milliseconds during boot.
Well, first of all, isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?
- Basic DOS is supposed to run on small machines, thus a small footprint is a major reason. Making everything non essential (and user convenience is) optional helps
- Not every User might like or even need it
- There might be scenarios where DOSKEY is harmful
- DOSKEY is - like many other 'comforting' add-ons - a late comer.
- Did I already mention RAM size? Even with full 640 KiB (and UMB), DOS memory was quite challenged when DOSKEY became available.
- Even if it's 'just' a few KiB, it could really be a drain.
Long story short, having a configurable system to be tailored to each job needed is quite an advantage worth paying the price of a few bytes wasted for headers and duplicate code plus a few milliseconds during boot.
edited 15 hours ago
Wilson
12.8k658145
12.8k658145
answered 16 hours ago
RaffzahnRaffzahn
56.8k6138230
56.8k6138230
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
1
1
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
I would argue that loading DOSKEY probably took more than "a few milliseconds during boot". tomshardware.com/reviews/… suggests in the early 1990s, 800 kB/s was normal throughput for a PC hard disk; at such speeds, even just loading an unfragmented 10 KB sequential block of data would take at least 12 ms. On fragmented media, a lot more; seek thrice on that drive and you're looking at on the order of 100 ms, which is quite perceptible a delay already. That said, this does not negate the point you are making; probably quite the opposite.
– a CVn
15 hours ago
2
2
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
@aCVn Come on, even 100 is a few. These where the 90s, DOS was almost instant. A blink of the HD-LED. Windows and LAN made us wait. Now, DOSKEY is under 6 KiB file size (5883 bytes). A typical 40 MiB Disk of that time would use 2 KiB cluster size, at least when formated by DOS with default settings. And the file gets moved there right after format, so chances are good it's not only consecutive, but even on the same cylinder than the rest of DOS. No seek, just load. Instant.
– Raffzahn
14 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
"isn't it best if an OS is configurable for each user the way he needs, instead of packing everything into one bloated package?" That's a valid position to take, but it isn't exactly the position that Microsoft took in the '80s and '90s. They tended to produce highly integrated packages, for a variety of reasons. In that sense, the decision not to integrate Doskey was more of an anomaly than your answer suggests it to be.
– Cody Gray
12 hours ago
2
2
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
800 kb/second is still 25 times faster than a floppy...
– Thorbjørn Ravn Andersen
9 hours ago
1
1
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
Regarding the tightness of memory, I remember being really into PC gaming in the mid-90s and spending many, many hours trying to figure out how to save that last few hundred bytes of "conventional" RAM so I could fit the various combinations of drivers loaded for that one particular game I wanted to play. Even when EMS became more common there were still a lot of issues with early sound cards and CD-ROM drives and so on. A couple of kilobytes made a huge difference back then.
– fluffy
7 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
The early architecture of COMMAND.COM (based on detailed analysis of DOS 2.1 a long, long time ago) was that a program requesting maximum memory could overwrite all of COMMAND.COM except a tiny portion which would reload from disk on termination.
By the time DOS 5 was released, 1MB RAM was not uncommon, so this motivation had gone.
But Windows 3.0 was released before DOS 5 and Microsoft started pushing for everyone to run Windows all the time, rather than just loading Windows 2.1 runtime for Excel or Pagemaker.
Windows 3.0 loaded on top of DOS, and it was common to open a DOS box or run batch files within it. Any bloat in COMMAND.COM would be loaded multiple times.
So I suggest that integrating functionality to COMMAND.COM would have been an unwise architectural choice in those days.
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The early architecture of COMMAND.COM (based on detailed analysis of DOS 2.1 a long, long time ago) was that a program requesting maximum memory could overwrite all of COMMAND.COM except a tiny portion which would reload from disk on termination.
By the time DOS 5 was released, 1MB RAM was not uncommon, so this motivation had gone.
But Windows 3.0 was released before DOS 5 and Microsoft started pushing for everyone to run Windows all the time, rather than just loading Windows 2.1 runtime for Excel or Pagemaker.
Windows 3.0 loaded on top of DOS, and it was common to open a DOS box or run batch files within it. Any bloat in COMMAND.COM would be loaded multiple times.
So I suggest that integrating functionality to COMMAND.COM would have been an unwise architectural choice in those days.
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
The early architecture of COMMAND.COM (based on detailed analysis of DOS 2.1 a long, long time ago) was that a program requesting maximum memory could overwrite all of COMMAND.COM except a tiny portion which would reload from disk on termination.
By the time DOS 5 was released, 1MB RAM was not uncommon, so this motivation had gone.
But Windows 3.0 was released before DOS 5 and Microsoft started pushing for everyone to run Windows all the time, rather than just loading Windows 2.1 runtime for Excel or Pagemaker.
Windows 3.0 loaded on top of DOS, and it was common to open a DOS box or run batch files within it. Any bloat in COMMAND.COM would be loaded multiple times.
So I suggest that integrating functionality to COMMAND.COM would have been an unwise architectural choice in those days.
The early architecture of COMMAND.COM (based on detailed analysis of DOS 2.1 a long, long time ago) was that a program requesting maximum memory could overwrite all of COMMAND.COM except a tiny portion which would reload from disk on termination.
By the time DOS 5 was released, 1MB RAM was not uncommon, so this motivation had gone.
But Windows 3.0 was released before DOS 5 and Microsoft started pushing for everyone to run Windows all the time, rather than just loading Windows 2.1 runtime for Excel or Pagemaker.
Windows 3.0 loaded on top of DOS, and it was common to open a DOS box or run batch files within it. Any bloat in COMMAND.COM would be loaded multiple times.
So I suggest that integrating functionality to COMMAND.COM would have been an unwise architectural choice in those days.
answered 8 hours ago
grahamj42grahamj42
46626
46626
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
1
1
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
This is an interesting point that others don't seem to have brought up, but even in DOS 5 days most people would still run Windows in standard mode instead of 386 enhanced. In real and standard modes, you didn't have multiple DOS boxes each with their own COMMAND.COM because virtual-86 was only supported and used by 386 enhanced mode. Even having 1MB of RAM in the system wouldn't be enough for 386 enhanced, because each DOS session required a full meg assigned to it anyway.
– Chris Charabaruk
5 hours ago
add a comment |
When MS-DOS 5.0 launched, Microsoft made the new features of DOSKEY a selling point of the new O/S, one of several improvements which made it seem worthwhile to buy the new version rather than stick with MS-DOS 3, which many users (me!) were still running.
MS-DOS 4 had not been exactly a blazing success (in terms of persuading consumers to part with their cash). I don't seem to be able to recall it having any particular benefits, over and above MS-DOS 3 (hence I went direct from MS-DOS 3 to 5), whereas the competition from new versions of PC-DOS and DR-DOS was pretty hot.
Microsoft were as much about making change for the sake of it, just to seem to be doing something, with MS-DOS 4—whilst also battling with the competition on the GUI platform, with Windows 3.1 getting launched about that same time.
All the software companies were desperate to show beleaguered users that command-line operating systems could be easy to use, given that users could not jump onto a GUI easily (Windows 2 was a real clunker, and no one other than Microsoft was seriously trying to develop a PC-based graphical user O/S).
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
add a comment |
When MS-DOS 5.0 launched, Microsoft made the new features of DOSKEY a selling point of the new O/S, one of several improvements which made it seem worthwhile to buy the new version rather than stick with MS-DOS 3, which many users (me!) were still running.
MS-DOS 4 had not been exactly a blazing success (in terms of persuading consumers to part with their cash). I don't seem to be able to recall it having any particular benefits, over and above MS-DOS 3 (hence I went direct from MS-DOS 3 to 5), whereas the competition from new versions of PC-DOS and DR-DOS was pretty hot.
Microsoft were as much about making change for the sake of it, just to seem to be doing something, with MS-DOS 4—whilst also battling with the competition on the GUI platform, with Windows 3.1 getting launched about that same time.
All the software companies were desperate to show beleaguered users that command-line operating systems could be easy to use, given that users could not jump onto a GUI easily (Windows 2 was a real clunker, and no one other than Microsoft was seriously trying to develop a PC-based graphical user O/S).
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
add a comment |
When MS-DOS 5.0 launched, Microsoft made the new features of DOSKEY a selling point of the new O/S, one of several improvements which made it seem worthwhile to buy the new version rather than stick with MS-DOS 3, which many users (me!) were still running.
MS-DOS 4 had not been exactly a blazing success (in terms of persuading consumers to part with their cash). I don't seem to be able to recall it having any particular benefits, over and above MS-DOS 3 (hence I went direct from MS-DOS 3 to 5), whereas the competition from new versions of PC-DOS and DR-DOS was pretty hot.
Microsoft were as much about making change for the sake of it, just to seem to be doing something, with MS-DOS 4—whilst also battling with the competition on the GUI platform, with Windows 3.1 getting launched about that same time.
All the software companies were desperate to show beleaguered users that command-line operating systems could be easy to use, given that users could not jump onto a GUI easily (Windows 2 was a real clunker, and no one other than Microsoft was seriously trying to develop a PC-based graphical user O/S).
When MS-DOS 5.0 launched, Microsoft made the new features of DOSKEY a selling point of the new O/S, one of several improvements which made it seem worthwhile to buy the new version rather than stick with MS-DOS 3, which many users (me!) were still running.
MS-DOS 4 had not been exactly a blazing success (in terms of persuading consumers to part with their cash). I don't seem to be able to recall it having any particular benefits, over and above MS-DOS 3 (hence I went direct from MS-DOS 3 to 5), whereas the competition from new versions of PC-DOS and DR-DOS was pretty hot.
Microsoft were as much about making change for the sake of it, just to seem to be doing something, with MS-DOS 4—whilst also battling with the competition on the GUI platform, with Windows 3.1 getting launched about that same time.
All the software companies were desperate to show beleaguered users that command-line operating systems could be easy to use, given that users could not jump onto a GUI easily (Windows 2 was a real clunker, and no one other than Microsoft was seriously trying to develop a PC-based graphical user O/S).
edited 10 hours ago
Cody Gray
1,149520
1,149520
answered 10 hours ago
Ed999Ed999
1993
1993
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
add a comment |
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
7
7
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
MS-DOS 4.x was an OEM-only release, with only minor changes. Microsoft wasn’t trying to get people to part with their cash for it. The retail versions did jump from 3.3 to 5.0. Aside from that, this answer appears to be attempting to explain why DOS 5 included DOSKET, which is not what the question asked. Rather, it is asking why DOSKEY was a separate TSR, rather than being integrated directly into the command interpreter (COMMAND.COM).
– Cody Gray
10 hours ago
add a comment |
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7
I remember spending a lot of time tuning CONFIG.SYS and AUTOEXEC.BAT while rebooting over and over again. Trying to save every last bit of memory so I could load games that had a large base RAM requirement. Even though we had the ability to address upper memory every program needed a foot in the base RAM. Out of the 640KB I often needed ~500K free or programs wouldn't load at all.
– HackSlash
8 hours ago