Has negative voting ever been officially implemented in elections, or seriously proposed, or even studied? ...
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Has negative voting ever been officially implemented in elections, or seriously proposed, or even studied?
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I struggled to name what I'm asking about here. I'm talking about the kind of voting that happens on many websites, including stackexchange: you can upvote something (a question), or you can downvote it. In other words, you can cast a positive vote or a negative vote on anything.
Note: I don't mean simply where you give each candidate (or whatever) a positive score from (say) 1 to 5. Youtube used to use this system for its videos, but switched to what I'm calling negative voting: thumbs up or down.
Has this ever been tried for real-world elections? You could for example vote:
Gaullists: 1
Socialists: 0 (no vote)
Communists: 0 (no vote)
National Front: -1 (negative vote)
To tally the results the returning officer would subtract a candidate's negative votes from their positive votes, and award the victory in this district to the candidate or party with the highest net score.
So,
Gaullist, 2000 up, 1500 down.
Socialist, 1500 up, 500 down.
Communist, 100 up, 75 down.
National Front, 300 up, 400 down.
The winner in this seat would be the Socialist candidate.
Has this ever been used for anything other than internet purposes? I'm pretty sure it's never been used for government elections at any level, or major political parties, but it would be interesting to know.
Has any prominent interest group or academic ever proposed using it? What is the thinking on whether it would be possible to design a negative voting system which satisfied all the requirements of a fair voting system described by Arrow?
voting-systems
|
show 6 more comments
I struggled to name what I'm asking about here. I'm talking about the kind of voting that happens on many websites, including stackexchange: you can upvote something (a question), or you can downvote it. In other words, you can cast a positive vote or a negative vote on anything.
Note: I don't mean simply where you give each candidate (or whatever) a positive score from (say) 1 to 5. Youtube used to use this system for its videos, but switched to what I'm calling negative voting: thumbs up or down.
Has this ever been tried for real-world elections? You could for example vote:
Gaullists: 1
Socialists: 0 (no vote)
Communists: 0 (no vote)
National Front: -1 (negative vote)
To tally the results the returning officer would subtract a candidate's negative votes from their positive votes, and award the victory in this district to the candidate or party with the highest net score.
So,
Gaullist, 2000 up, 1500 down.
Socialist, 1500 up, 500 down.
Communist, 100 up, 75 down.
National Front, 300 up, 400 down.
The winner in this seat would be the Socialist candidate.
Has this ever been used for anything other than internet purposes? I'm pretty sure it's never been used for government elections at any level, or major political parties, but it would be interesting to know.
Has any prominent interest group or academic ever proposed using it? What is the thinking on whether it would be possible to design a negative voting system which satisfied all the requirements of a fair voting system described by Arrow?
voting-systems
6
If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
3
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
1
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
1
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
1
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
I struggled to name what I'm asking about here. I'm talking about the kind of voting that happens on many websites, including stackexchange: you can upvote something (a question), or you can downvote it. In other words, you can cast a positive vote or a negative vote on anything.
Note: I don't mean simply where you give each candidate (or whatever) a positive score from (say) 1 to 5. Youtube used to use this system for its videos, but switched to what I'm calling negative voting: thumbs up or down.
Has this ever been tried for real-world elections? You could for example vote:
Gaullists: 1
Socialists: 0 (no vote)
Communists: 0 (no vote)
National Front: -1 (negative vote)
To tally the results the returning officer would subtract a candidate's negative votes from their positive votes, and award the victory in this district to the candidate or party with the highest net score.
So,
Gaullist, 2000 up, 1500 down.
Socialist, 1500 up, 500 down.
Communist, 100 up, 75 down.
National Front, 300 up, 400 down.
The winner in this seat would be the Socialist candidate.
Has this ever been used for anything other than internet purposes? I'm pretty sure it's never been used for government elections at any level, or major political parties, but it would be interesting to know.
Has any prominent interest group or academic ever proposed using it? What is the thinking on whether it would be possible to design a negative voting system which satisfied all the requirements of a fair voting system described by Arrow?
voting-systems
I struggled to name what I'm asking about here. I'm talking about the kind of voting that happens on many websites, including stackexchange: you can upvote something (a question), or you can downvote it. In other words, you can cast a positive vote or a negative vote on anything.
Note: I don't mean simply where you give each candidate (or whatever) a positive score from (say) 1 to 5. Youtube used to use this system for its videos, but switched to what I'm calling negative voting: thumbs up or down.
Has this ever been tried for real-world elections? You could for example vote:
Gaullists: 1
Socialists: 0 (no vote)
Communists: 0 (no vote)
National Front: -1 (negative vote)
To tally the results the returning officer would subtract a candidate's negative votes from their positive votes, and award the victory in this district to the candidate or party with the highest net score.
So,
Gaullist, 2000 up, 1500 down.
Socialist, 1500 up, 500 down.
Communist, 100 up, 75 down.
National Front, 300 up, 400 down.
The winner in this seat would be the Socialist candidate.
Has this ever been used for anything other than internet purposes? I'm pretty sure it's never been used for government elections at any level, or major political parties, but it would be interesting to know.
Has any prominent interest group or academic ever proposed using it? What is the thinking on whether it would be possible to design a negative voting system which satisfied all the requirements of a fair voting system described by Arrow?
voting-systems
voting-systems
edited 17 hours ago
Ne Mo
asked 18 hours ago
Ne MoNe Mo
331315
331315
6
If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
3
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
1
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
1
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
1
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
6
If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
3
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
1
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
1
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
1
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago
6
6
If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
3
3
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
1
1
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
1
1
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
1
1
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
This is functionally identical to range voting
Mathematically, it is irrelevant which range you pick of a given size, be that 1 to 3, -1 to 1, or -997 to -995.
Let's run your sample election at two ranges (I'm assuming 3500 voters as it's the smallest number you need, but you can add more voters and it does not change the result):
-1 to 1
Gaullists:
2000*1 + 0*0 + 1500*-1 = 500
Socialists:
1500*1 + 1500*0 + 500*-1 = 1000
Communists:
100*1 + 3325*0 + 75*-1 = 25
National Front:
300*1 + 2800*0 + 400*-1 = -100
1 to 3
Gaullists:
2000*3 + 0*2 + 1500*1 = 7500
Socialists:
1500*3 + 1500*2 + 500*1 = 8000
Communists:
100*3 + 3325*2 + 75*1 = 7025
National Front:
300*3 + 2800*2 + 400*1 = 6900
As you can see, both the results and margins are the same.
While there may well be cognitive differences (voting against might seem more aggressive than simply giving the lowest score, people may be more likely give the middle score as it is inaction) there are no mathematical changes based on the range you choose.
This means that this method has the same advantages and drawbacks as range voting. While it may appear to violate Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, that is because it is a cardinal voting method, while the "universality" criterion of Arrow's theorem effectively restricts that result to ordinal voting methods.
It also fails both the Condorcet and Majority criteria.
Range voting has never been implemented for a national election.
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
What you're describing is a form of disapproval, negative, or anti-plurality voting, although this version (allowing up and down votes) doesn't seem to be widely used, if at all.
One possible example of being able to vote either for or against a candidate comes from the Soviet Union in the late 1980's, as described in this 1987 New York Times article:
According to the rules for the experimental multimember districts, the number of candidates in each district would exceed the number of seats allocated. Voters may withhold their vote from particular candidates by crossing out their names on the ballot.
Candidates backed by at least half of the registered voters in the constituency would be considered elected. If the number of elected candidates exceeds the number of seats allotted to the constituency, those with the least number of votes are declared stand-by members...
In essence, this voting system gave each candidate a +1 vote per ballot cast by default, voters could cast a -1 to cancel that out, and every candidate who didn't lose half of their votes got elected. The forced +1 to start with isn't really in the spirit of what you're describing, but it's close.
However, there are many voting reform proposals across the world with varying levels of traction, and at least some are bound to be similar to what you describe. One such proposal was detailed in this Desert Sun article from January:
If we want our civic life to be more positive, we might need to vote in the negative.
That’s the compelling case that Sam Chang, a retired banker who lives in Taipei, was making as I rode BART with him between meetings with California election experts.
...
His concept of “the negative vote” is straightforward. Today we can vote for one candidate in each race. Chang proposes to give voters the ability to use that one vote to cast a ballot against the candidate instead. In such a system, each candidate’s tally of votes would be a net — between the number of positive and negative votes.
More details can be found at what appears to be a page dedicated to Chang's proposal, but they don't really cover any of the Arrow theorem stuff and their main selling point seems to be that it potentially increases voter turnout because people like saying no to things.
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, this is called "Combined Approval Voting", "evaluative voting", or "dis&approval voting" and has been proposed and studied by a number of people, including exit poll tests in France. (I've also seen people say that the correct name is "Net Approval Voting", but the people who say that seem to be the only ones calling it that.)
It's mathematically identical to Score/Range Voting (except that blanks are assigned to the middle of the scale instead of the bottom), but not conceptually identical, since it features explicit disapproval, which studies have shown changes the way people vote. (However, the French study has a discrepancy in that the research paper said that blanks get counted as 0, while the ballots themselves said that blanks get counted as -1. I'm not sure if that affected this conclusion.)
The Republic of Venice also supposedly used this type of ballot, except with balls placed in green and red urns to indicate approval or disapproval. It's hard to find a convincingly reliable source, though.
There's also another Taiwanese proposal with the same type of ballot, but different rules, called "Negative Vote". The difference is that it only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, and all other candidates must be left blank, so it still suffers from vote-splitting effects.
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
add a comment |
To address your title question, according to some sources, parts of the system to elect the Doges of Venice had a three-option voting scheme with choices either approval, disapproval or "doubt" for each candidate. Unfortunately, other sources disagree, and it's certain that the system changed over time. It also involved a very small electorate and multiple rounds of voting.
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
add a comment |
A certain kind of this voting actually happens in all elections in Latvia.
The Central Election Commission’s website seems to have been redesigned recently and I can’t find descriptions/infographics of this in the new design, so I’ll use old images and references to laws.
All candidates in an election are split into lists (corresponding to political parties or alliances). When a voter arrives at the polling station, they are given a whole pack of ballot sheets, one per candidate list. Each of these sheets looks like this:
It has the list’s name and number, an ordered list of candidates and a box next to each candidate’s name.
The voter chooses one sheet and votes for the corresponding list. (The one sheet is cast into the ballot box and the others discarded.) But beyond that, they may choose to vote for or against any individual candidate(s) on this list by either putting a plus into the box or drawing a line through their name:
Eventually when the votes are counted and seats are distributed, seats are distributed between candidate lists (ignoring the pluses and strikeouts), and within each list candidates are ordered by the individual votes they’ve got. Only in case of ties are candidates ordered the way they were listed in the ballot (which was decided by the corresponding party itself when it applied for the election).
Usually, parties put their most well-known and popular members at the top of the list to catch the voter’s eye and collect many pluses, but it’s not uncommon for candidates near the top to be struck out a lot and fall behind or for candidates who start several places behind to catch up and surpass the list’s leaders.
Unfortunately, the relevant laws don’t have official English translations, but for reference:
In the Parliament election law:
- §23.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §35 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the European Parliament election law:
- §24.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the local election law:
- §29.1–2 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40² describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §41.6–7 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
New contributor
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Check out Democracy 2.1. It is a proposed voting system whose advantage is that it produces less controversial and more consensual outcomes. The idea is that each voter has more votes than there are electable candidates, and for every 2 (or more) positive votes they cast, they may optionally cast a negative vote. In other words, voters have to select multiple acceptable outcomes if they also want to cast the negative vote. This encourages consensus building and hopefully rational thought, and the results indicate not just who won by the greatest number of votes, but also who is the most acceptable and who the most controversial or even not acceptable.
(I say "who" but it can just as well be "what". The system has for example been used for participatory budgeting in New York.)
New contributor
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment |
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6 Answers
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6 Answers
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This is functionally identical to range voting
Mathematically, it is irrelevant which range you pick of a given size, be that 1 to 3, -1 to 1, or -997 to -995.
Let's run your sample election at two ranges (I'm assuming 3500 voters as it's the smallest number you need, but you can add more voters and it does not change the result):
-1 to 1
Gaullists:
2000*1 + 0*0 + 1500*-1 = 500
Socialists:
1500*1 + 1500*0 + 500*-1 = 1000
Communists:
100*1 + 3325*0 + 75*-1 = 25
National Front:
300*1 + 2800*0 + 400*-1 = -100
1 to 3
Gaullists:
2000*3 + 0*2 + 1500*1 = 7500
Socialists:
1500*3 + 1500*2 + 500*1 = 8000
Communists:
100*3 + 3325*2 + 75*1 = 7025
National Front:
300*3 + 2800*2 + 400*1 = 6900
As you can see, both the results and margins are the same.
While there may well be cognitive differences (voting against might seem more aggressive than simply giving the lowest score, people may be more likely give the middle score as it is inaction) there are no mathematical changes based on the range you choose.
This means that this method has the same advantages and drawbacks as range voting. While it may appear to violate Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, that is because it is a cardinal voting method, while the "universality" criterion of Arrow's theorem effectively restricts that result to ordinal voting methods.
It also fails both the Condorcet and Majority criteria.
Range voting has never been implemented for a national election.
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
This is functionally identical to range voting
Mathematically, it is irrelevant which range you pick of a given size, be that 1 to 3, -1 to 1, or -997 to -995.
Let's run your sample election at two ranges (I'm assuming 3500 voters as it's the smallest number you need, but you can add more voters and it does not change the result):
-1 to 1
Gaullists:
2000*1 + 0*0 + 1500*-1 = 500
Socialists:
1500*1 + 1500*0 + 500*-1 = 1000
Communists:
100*1 + 3325*0 + 75*-1 = 25
National Front:
300*1 + 2800*0 + 400*-1 = -100
1 to 3
Gaullists:
2000*3 + 0*2 + 1500*1 = 7500
Socialists:
1500*3 + 1500*2 + 500*1 = 8000
Communists:
100*3 + 3325*2 + 75*1 = 7025
National Front:
300*3 + 2800*2 + 400*1 = 6900
As you can see, both the results and margins are the same.
While there may well be cognitive differences (voting against might seem more aggressive than simply giving the lowest score, people may be more likely give the middle score as it is inaction) there are no mathematical changes based on the range you choose.
This means that this method has the same advantages and drawbacks as range voting. While it may appear to violate Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, that is because it is a cardinal voting method, while the "universality" criterion of Arrow's theorem effectively restricts that result to ordinal voting methods.
It also fails both the Condorcet and Majority criteria.
Range voting has never been implemented for a national election.
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
This is functionally identical to range voting
Mathematically, it is irrelevant which range you pick of a given size, be that 1 to 3, -1 to 1, or -997 to -995.
Let's run your sample election at two ranges (I'm assuming 3500 voters as it's the smallest number you need, but you can add more voters and it does not change the result):
-1 to 1
Gaullists:
2000*1 + 0*0 + 1500*-1 = 500
Socialists:
1500*1 + 1500*0 + 500*-1 = 1000
Communists:
100*1 + 3325*0 + 75*-1 = 25
National Front:
300*1 + 2800*0 + 400*-1 = -100
1 to 3
Gaullists:
2000*3 + 0*2 + 1500*1 = 7500
Socialists:
1500*3 + 1500*2 + 500*1 = 8000
Communists:
100*3 + 3325*2 + 75*1 = 7025
National Front:
300*3 + 2800*2 + 400*1 = 6900
As you can see, both the results and margins are the same.
While there may well be cognitive differences (voting against might seem more aggressive than simply giving the lowest score, people may be more likely give the middle score as it is inaction) there are no mathematical changes based on the range you choose.
This means that this method has the same advantages and drawbacks as range voting. While it may appear to violate Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, that is because it is a cardinal voting method, while the "universality" criterion of Arrow's theorem effectively restricts that result to ordinal voting methods.
It also fails both the Condorcet and Majority criteria.
Range voting has never been implemented for a national election.
This is functionally identical to range voting
Mathematically, it is irrelevant which range you pick of a given size, be that 1 to 3, -1 to 1, or -997 to -995.
Let's run your sample election at two ranges (I'm assuming 3500 voters as it's the smallest number you need, but you can add more voters and it does not change the result):
-1 to 1
Gaullists:
2000*1 + 0*0 + 1500*-1 = 500
Socialists:
1500*1 + 1500*0 + 500*-1 = 1000
Communists:
100*1 + 3325*0 + 75*-1 = 25
National Front:
300*1 + 2800*0 + 400*-1 = -100
1 to 3
Gaullists:
2000*3 + 0*2 + 1500*1 = 7500
Socialists:
1500*3 + 1500*2 + 500*1 = 8000
Communists:
100*3 + 3325*2 + 75*1 = 7025
National Front:
300*3 + 2800*2 + 400*1 = 6900
As you can see, both the results and margins are the same.
While there may well be cognitive differences (voting against might seem more aggressive than simply giving the lowest score, people may be more likely give the middle score as it is inaction) there are no mathematical changes based on the range you choose.
This means that this method has the same advantages and drawbacks as range voting. While it may appear to violate Arrow's Impossibility Theorem, that is because it is a cardinal voting method, while the "universality" criterion of Arrow's theorem effectively restricts that result to ordinal voting methods.
It also fails both the Condorcet and Majority criteria.
Range voting has never been implemented for a national election.
edited 8 hours ago
Fizz
15.9k241103
15.9k241103
answered 17 hours ago
CoedRhyfelwrCoedRhyfelwr
2,60121026
2,60121026
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
3
3
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
We can call it range voting if you want. I'll delete that sentence. I'm trying to get across I'm not talking about the ability to give candidates a score in general, but specifically a negative score.
– Ne Mo
17 hours ago
9
9
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
@NeMo The point I'm trying to make is that is functionally irrelevant whether you allow a negative score. Of course you can ask that as a curiosity, but it is not a meaningfully different way of voting, and it will satisfy only those voting criteria that range voting satisfies.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
5
5
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
@Giter What separates FPTP is you can only give a '1' to one candidate, in range voting each candidate is rated independently on a scale. Of course simply making that change gives you approval voting which is debatably a type of range voting but the conventional definition requires more than two options. It's the independence of other ratings that is most notable about range voting though.
– CoedRhyfelwr
17 hours ago
9
9
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
What this answer has described is equivalent to range voting only if a "didn't vote" is recorded as a vote for the middle of the range. Note that this answer has had to artificially introduce some votes for the "2" option that did not exist in OP's example. In OP's example, those voters skipped that candidate altogether.
– shoover
14 hours ago
5
5
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
@shoover but functionally that is the same thing - the vote is given a 0 score so appears not to exist but it is implied. Under this system not voting confers a 0 score which is the middle score. Translating to a different range simply makes that more obvious.
– CoedRhyfelwr
14 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
What you're describing is a form of disapproval, negative, or anti-plurality voting, although this version (allowing up and down votes) doesn't seem to be widely used, if at all.
One possible example of being able to vote either for or against a candidate comes from the Soviet Union in the late 1980's, as described in this 1987 New York Times article:
According to the rules for the experimental multimember districts, the number of candidates in each district would exceed the number of seats allocated. Voters may withhold their vote from particular candidates by crossing out their names on the ballot.
Candidates backed by at least half of the registered voters in the constituency would be considered elected. If the number of elected candidates exceeds the number of seats allotted to the constituency, those with the least number of votes are declared stand-by members...
In essence, this voting system gave each candidate a +1 vote per ballot cast by default, voters could cast a -1 to cancel that out, and every candidate who didn't lose half of their votes got elected. The forced +1 to start with isn't really in the spirit of what you're describing, but it's close.
However, there are many voting reform proposals across the world with varying levels of traction, and at least some are bound to be similar to what you describe. One such proposal was detailed in this Desert Sun article from January:
If we want our civic life to be more positive, we might need to vote in the negative.
That’s the compelling case that Sam Chang, a retired banker who lives in Taipei, was making as I rode BART with him between meetings with California election experts.
...
His concept of “the negative vote” is straightforward. Today we can vote for one candidate in each race. Chang proposes to give voters the ability to use that one vote to cast a ballot against the candidate instead. In such a system, each candidate’s tally of votes would be a net — between the number of positive and negative votes.
More details can be found at what appears to be a page dedicated to Chang's proposal, but they don't really cover any of the Arrow theorem stuff and their main selling point seems to be that it potentially increases voter turnout because people like saying no to things.
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
add a comment |
What you're describing is a form of disapproval, negative, or anti-plurality voting, although this version (allowing up and down votes) doesn't seem to be widely used, if at all.
One possible example of being able to vote either for or against a candidate comes from the Soviet Union in the late 1980's, as described in this 1987 New York Times article:
According to the rules for the experimental multimember districts, the number of candidates in each district would exceed the number of seats allocated. Voters may withhold their vote from particular candidates by crossing out their names on the ballot.
Candidates backed by at least half of the registered voters in the constituency would be considered elected. If the number of elected candidates exceeds the number of seats allotted to the constituency, those with the least number of votes are declared stand-by members...
In essence, this voting system gave each candidate a +1 vote per ballot cast by default, voters could cast a -1 to cancel that out, and every candidate who didn't lose half of their votes got elected. The forced +1 to start with isn't really in the spirit of what you're describing, but it's close.
However, there are many voting reform proposals across the world with varying levels of traction, and at least some are bound to be similar to what you describe. One such proposal was detailed in this Desert Sun article from January:
If we want our civic life to be more positive, we might need to vote in the negative.
That’s the compelling case that Sam Chang, a retired banker who lives in Taipei, was making as I rode BART with him between meetings with California election experts.
...
His concept of “the negative vote” is straightforward. Today we can vote for one candidate in each race. Chang proposes to give voters the ability to use that one vote to cast a ballot against the candidate instead. In such a system, each candidate’s tally of votes would be a net — between the number of positive and negative votes.
More details can be found at what appears to be a page dedicated to Chang's proposal, but they don't really cover any of the Arrow theorem stuff and their main selling point seems to be that it potentially increases voter turnout because people like saying no to things.
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
add a comment |
What you're describing is a form of disapproval, negative, or anti-plurality voting, although this version (allowing up and down votes) doesn't seem to be widely used, if at all.
One possible example of being able to vote either for or against a candidate comes from the Soviet Union in the late 1980's, as described in this 1987 New York Times article:
According to the rules for the experimental multimember districts, the number of candidates in each district would exceed the number of seats allocated. Voters may withhold their vote from particular candidates by crossing out their names on the ballot.
Candidates backed by at least half of the registered voters in the constituency would be considered elected. If the number of elected candidates exceeds the number of seats allotted to the constituency, those with the least number of votes are declared stand-by members...
In essence, this voting system gave each candidate a +1 vote per ballot cast by default, voters could cast a -1 to cancel that out, and every candidate who didn't lose half of their votes got elected. The forced +1 to start with isn't really in the spirit of what you're describing, but it's close.
However, there are many voting reform proposals across the world with varying levels of traction, and at least some are bound to be similar to what you describe. One such proposal was detailed in this Desert Sun article from January:
If we want our civic life to be more positive, we might need to vote in the negative.
That’s the compelling case that Sam Chang, a retired banker who lives in Taipei, was making as I rode BART with him between meetings with California election experts.
...
His concept of “the negative vote” is straightforward. Today we can vote for one candidate in each race. Chang proposes to give voters the ability to use that one vote to cast a ballot against the candidate instead. In such a system, each candidate’s tally of votes would be a net — between the number of positive and negative votes.
More details can be found at what appears to be a page dedicated to Chang's proposal, but they don't really cover any of the Arrow theorem stuff and their main selling point seems to be that it potentially increases voter turnout because people like saying no to things.
What you're describing is a form of disapproval, negative, or anti-plurality voting, although this version (allowing up and down votes) doesn't seem to be widely used, if at all.
One possible example of being able to vote either for or against a candidate comes from the Soviet Union in the late 1980's, as described in this 1987 New York Times article:
According to the rules for the experimental multimember districts, the number of candidates in each district would exceed the number of seats allocated. Voters may withhold their vote from particular candidates by crossing out their names on the ballot.
Candidates backed by at least half of the registered voters in the constituency would be considered elected. If the number of elected candidates exceeds the number of seats allotted to the constituency, those with the least number of votes are declared stand-by members...
In essence, this voting system gave each candidate a +1 vote per ballot cast by default, voters could cast a -1 to cancel that out, and every candidate who didn't lose half of their votes got elected. The forced +1 to start with isn't really in the spirit of what you're describing, but it's close.
However, there are many voting reform proposals across the world with varying levels of traction, and at least some are bound to be similar to what you describe. One such proposal was detailed in this Desert Sun article from January:
If we want our civic life to be more positive, we might need to vote in the negative.
That’s the compelling case that Sam Chang, a retired banker who lives in Taipei, was making as I rode BART with him between meetings with California election experts.
...
His concept of “the negative vote” is straightforward. Today we can vote for one candidate in each race. Chang proposes to give voters the ability to use that one vote to cast a ballot against the candidate instead. In such a system, each candidate’s tally of votes would be a net — between the number of positive and negative votes.
More details can be found at what appears to be a page dedicated to Chang's proposal, but they don't really cover any of the Arrow theorem stuff and their main selling point seems to be that it potentially increases voter turnout because people like saying no to things.
edited 14 hours ago
answered 17 hours ago
GiterGiter
3,66221021
3,66221021
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
1
1
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
Chang's proposal only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, though, not every candidate.
– endolith
14 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, this is called "Combined Approval Voting", "evaluative voting", or "dis&approval voting" and has been proposed and studied by a number of people, including exit poll tests in France. (I've also seen people say that the correct name is "Net Approval Voting", but the people who say that seem to be the only ones calling it that.)
It's mathematically identical to Score/Range Voting (except that blanks are assigned to the middle of the scale instead of the bottom), but not conceptually identical, since it features explicit disapproval, which studies have shown changes the way people vote. (However, the French study has a discrepancy in that the research paper said that blanks get counted as 0, while the ballots themselves said that blanks get counted as -1. I'm not sure if that affected this conclusion.)
The Republic of Venice also supposedly used this type of ballot, except with balls placed in green and red urns to indicate approval or disapproval. It's hard to find a convincingly reliable source, though.
There's also another Taiwanese proposal with the same type of ballot, but different rules, called "Negative Vote". The difference is that it only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, and all other candidates must be left blank, so it still suffers from vote-splitting effects.
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, this is called "Combined Approval Voting", "evaluative voting", or "dis&approval voting" and has been proposed and studied by a number of people, including exit poll tests in France. (I've also seen people say that the correct name is "Net Approval Voting", but the people who say that seem to be the only ones calling it that.)
It's mathematically identical to Score/Range Voting (except that blanks are assigned to the middle of the scale instead of the bottom), but not conceptually identical, since it features explicit disapproval, which studies have shown changes the way people vote. (However, the French study has a discrepancy in that the research paper said that blanks get counted as 0, while the ballots themselves said that blanks get counted as -1. I'm not sure if that affected this conclusion.)
The Republic of Venice also supposedly used this type of ballot, except with balls placed in green and red urns to indicate approval or disapproval. It's hard to find a convincingly reliable source, though.
There's also another Taiwanese proposal with the same type of ballot, but different rules, called "Negative Vote". The difference is that it only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, and all other candidates must be left blank, so it still suffers from vote-splitting effects.
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
add a comment |
Yes, this is called "Combined Approval Voting", "evaluative voting", or "dis&approval voting" and has been proposed and studied by a number of people, including exit poll tests in France. (I've also seen people say that the correct name is "Net Approval Voting", but the people who say that seem to be the only ones calling it that.)
It's mathematically identical to Score/Range Voting (except that blanks are assigned to the middle of the scale instead of the bottom), but not conceptually identical, since it features explicit disapproval, which studies have shown changes the way people vote. (However, the French study has a discrepancy in that the research paper said that blanks get counted as 0, while the ballots themselves said that blanks get counted as -1. I'm not sure if that affected this conclusion.)
The Republic of Venice also supposedly used this type of ballot, except with balls placed in green and red urns to indicate approval or disapproval. It's hard to find a convincingly reliable source, though.
There's also another Taiwanese proposal with the same type of ballot, but different rules, called "Negative Vote". The difference is that it only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, and all other candidates must be left blank, so it still suffers from vote-splitting effects.
Yes, this is called "Combined Approval Voting", "evaluative voting", or "dis&approval voting" and has been proposed and studied by a number of people, including exit poll tests in France. (I've also seen people say that the correct name is "Net Approval Voting", but the people who say that seem to be the only ones calling it that.)
It's mathematically identical to Score/Range Voting (except that blanks are assigned to the middle of the scale instead of the bottom), but not conceptually identical, since it features explicit disapproval, which studies have shown changes the way people vote. (However, the French study has a discrepancy in that the research paper said that blanks get counted as 0, while the ballots themselves said that blanks get counted as -1. I'm not sure if that affected this conclusion.)
The Republic of Venice also supposedly used this type of ballot, except with balls placed in green and red urns to indicate approval or disapproval. It's hard to find a convincingly reliable source, though.
There's also another Taiwanese proposal with the same type of ballot, but different rules, called "Negative Vote". The difference is that it only allows you to vote for or against one candidate, and all other candidates must be left blank, so it still suffers from vote-splitting effects.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 14 hours ago
endolithendolith
1,366829
1,366829
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
add a comment |
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
1
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
This is the best answer. Hopefully the OP will accept this one as to counter the cargo-cult voting effect rather prevalent here. You could probably make it a little more obvious for the neophytes that score voting and range voting are names for the same thing.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
1
1
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
Regarding Venice see history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/… although H SE can be even more of a crapshot than P SE in my experience.
– Fizz
8 hours ago
add a comment |
To address your title question, according to some sources, parts of the system to elect the Doges of Venice had a three-option voting scheme with choices either approval, disapproval or "doubt" for each candidate. Unfortunately, other sources disagree, and it's certain that the system changed over time. It also involved a very small electorate and multiple rounds of voting.
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
add a comment |
To address your title question, according to some sources, parts of the system to elect the Doges of Venice had a three-option voting scheme with choices either approval, disapproval or "doubt" for each candidate. Unfortunately, other sources disagree, and it's certain that the system changed over time. It also involved a very small electorate and multiple rounds of voting.
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
add a comment |
To address your title question, according to some sources, parts of the system to elect the Doges of Venice had a three-option voting scheme with choices either approval, disapproval or "doubt" for each candidate. Unfortunately, other sources disagree, and it's certain that the system changed over time. It also involved a very small electorate and multiple rounds of voting.
To address your title question, according to some sources, parts of the system to elect the Doges of Venice had a three-option voting scheme with choices either approval, disapproval or "doubt" for each candidate. Unfortunately, other sources disagree, and it's certain that the system changed over time. It also involved a very small electorate and multiple rounds of voting.
answered 16 hours ago
origimboorigimbo
13.9k23355
13.9k23355
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
1
1
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
Which are these other sources (that disagree)? You could use that to answer history.stackexchange.com/questions/52174/…
– Fizz
7 hours ago
2
2
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
@Fizz Consider e.g. the description repeated in Coggins & Perali, which doesn't appear to mention the ability to abstain at any point: apec.umn.edu/sites/apec.umn.edu/files/… That would still be range voting, but only over {-1,1}, not {-1,0,1}
– origimbo
7 hours ago
add a comment |
A certain kind of this voting actually happens in all elections in Latvia.
The Central Election Commission’s website seems to have been redesigned recently and I can’t find descriptions/infographics of this in the new design, so I’ll use old images and references to laws.
All candidates in an election are split into lists (corresponding to political parties or alliances). When a voter arrives at the polling station, they are given a whole pack of ballot sheets, one per candidate list. Each of these sheets looks like this:
It has the list’s name and number, an ordered list of candidates and a box next to each candidate’s name.
The voter chooses one sheet and votes for the corresponding list. (The one sheet is cast into the ballot box and the others discarded.) But beyond that, they may choose to vote for or against any individual candidate(s) on this list by either putting a plus into the box or drawing a line through their name:
Eventually when the votes are counted and seats are distributed, seats are distributed between candidate lists (ignoring the pluses and strikeouts), and within each list candidates are ordered by the individual votes they’ve got. Only in case of ties are candidates ordered the way they were listed in the ballot (which was decided by the corresponding party itself when it applied for the election).
Usually, parties put their most well-known and popular members at the top of the list to catch the voter’s eye and collect many pluses, but it’s not uncommon for candidates near the top to be struck out a lot and fall behind or for candidates who start several places behind to catch up and surpass the list’s leaders.
Unfortunately, the relevant laws don’t have official English translations, but for reference:
In the Parliament election law:
- §23.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §35 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the European Parliament election law:
- §24.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the local election law:
- §29.1–2 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40² describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §41.6–7 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
New contributor
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
add a comment |
A certain kind of this voting actually happens in all elections in Latvia.
The Central Election Commission’s website seems to have been redesigned recently and I can’t find descriptions/infographics of this in the new design, so I’ll use old images and references to laws.
All candidates in an election are split into lists (corresponding to political parties or alliances). When a voter arrives at the polling station, they are given a whole pack of ballot sheets, one per candidate list. Each of these sheets looks like this:
It has the list’s name and number, an ordered list of candidates and a box next to each candidate’s name.
The voter chooses one sheet and votes for the corresponding list. (The one sheet is cast into the ballot box and the others discarded.) But beyond that, they may choose to vote for or against any individual candidate(s) on this list by either putting a plus into the box or drawing a line through their name:
Eventually when the votes are counted and seats are distributed, seats are distributed between candidate lists (ignoring the pluses and strikeouts), and within each list candidates are ordered by the individual votes they’ve got. Only in case of ties are candidates ordered the way they were listed in the ballot (which was decided by the corresponding party itself when it applied for the election).
Usually, parties put their most well-known and popular members at the top of the list to catch the voter’s eye and collect many pluses, but it’s not uncommon for candidates near the top to be struck out a lot and fall behind or for candidates who start several places behind to catch up and surpass the list’s leaders.
Unfortunately, the relevant laws don’t have official English translations, but for reference:
In the Parliament election law:
- §23.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §35 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the European Parliament election law:
- §24.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the local election law:
- §29.1–2 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40² describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §41.6–7 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
New contributor
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
add a comment |
A certain kind of this voting actually happens in all elections in Latvia.
The Central Election Commission’s website seems to have been redesigned recently and I can’t find descriptions/infographics of this in the new design, so I’ll use old images and references to laws.
All candidates in an election are split into lists (corresponding to political parties or alliances). When a voter arrives at the polling station, they are given a whole pack of ballot sheets, one per candidate list. Each of these sheets looks like this:
It has the list’s name and number, an ordered list of candidates and a box next to each candidate’s name.
The voter chooses one sheet and votes for the corresponding list. (The one sheet is cast into the ballot box and the others discarded.) But beyond that, they may choose to vote for or against any individual candidate(s) on this list by either putting a plus into the box or drawing a line through their name:
Eventually when the votes are counted and seats are distributed, seats are distributed between candidate lists (ignoring the pluses and strikeouts), and within each list candidates are ordered by the individual votes they’ve got. Only in case of ties are candidates ordered the way they were listed in the ballot (which was decided by the corresponding party itself when it applied for the election).
Usually, parties put their most well-known and popular members at the top of the list to catch the voter’s eye and collect many pluses, but it’s not uncommon for candidates near the top to be struck out a lot and fall behind or for candidates who start several places behind to catch up and surpass the list’s leaders.
Unfortunately, the relevant laws don’t have official English translations, but for reference:
In the Parliament election law:
- §23.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §35 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the European Parliament election law:
- §24.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the local election law:
- §29.1–2 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40² describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §41.6–7 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
New contributor
A certain kind of this voting actually happens in all elections in Latvia.
The Central Election Commission’s website seems to have been redesigned recently and I can’t find descriptions/infographics of this in the new design, so I’ll use old images and references to laws.
All candidates in an election are split into lists (corresponding to political parties or alliances). When a voter arrives at the polling station, they are given a whole pack of ballot sheets, one per candidate list. Each of these sheets looks like this:
It has the list’s name and number, an ordered list of candidates and a box next to each candidate’s name.
The voter chooses one sheet and votes for the corresponding list. (The one sheet is cast into the ballot box and the others discarded.) But beyond that, they may choose to vote for or against any individual candidate(s) on this list by either putting a plus into the box or drawing a line through their name:
Eventually when the votes are counted and seats are distributed, seats are distributed between candidate lists (ignoring the pluses and strikeouts), and within each list candidates are ordered by the individual votes they’ve got. Only in case of ties are candidates ordered the way they were listed in the ballot (which was decided by the corresponding party itself when it applied for the election).
Usually, parties put their most well-known and popular members at the top of the list to catch the voter’s eye and collect many pluses, but it’s not uncommon for candidates near the top to be struck out a lot and fall behind or for candidates who start several places behind to catch up and surpass the list’s leaders.
Unfortunately, the relevant laws don’t have official English translations, but for reference:
In the Parliament election law:
- §23.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §35 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the European Parliament election law:
- §24.2–3 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40 describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §39 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
In the local election law:
- §29.1–2 describes how a voter can add a “+” or strike out a candidate;
- §40² describes how these marks are added up for each individual candidate;
- §41.6–7 describes how candidates are rearranged in order of “number of ballots + number of pluses − number of strikeouts” (with ties resolved in the original order the candidates are listed on the ballot) and the top of this list are elected.
New contributor
New contributor
answered 6 hours ago
Chortos-2Chortos-2
1691
1691
New contributor
New contributor
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
Confirmed from nsd.no/european_election_database/country/latvia/… "Electors vote for lists of candidates but can also indicate specific support or rejection. [...] Distribution of seats among [parties] is based on the Saint-Lagüe method. Within each list, the order of candidates is re-arranged to reflect the preferences expressed by the voters. The vote for each candidate is equal to the number of votes cast for the list, plus or minus specific votes." That page also describes the overall system as "Direct, simple majority and preferential vote".
– Fizz
25 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
The latter term is rather ambiguous though en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferential_voting but it does include score voting as one of the sub-categories.
– Fizz
23 mins ago
add a comment |
Check out Democracy 2.1. It is a proposed voting system whose advantage is that it produces less controversial and more consensual outcomes. The idea is that each voter has more votes than there are electable candidates, and for every 2 (or more) positive votes they cast, they may optionally cast a negative vote. In other words, voters have to select multiple acceptable outcomes if they also want to cast the negative vote. This encourages consensus building and hopefully rational thought, and the results indicate not just who won by the greatest number of votes, but also who is the most acceptable and who the most controversial or even not acceptable.
(I say "who" but it can just as well be "what". The system has for example been used for participatory budgeting in New York.)
New contributor
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Check out Democracy 2.1. It is a proposed voting system whose advantage is that it produces less controversial and more consensual outcomes. The idea is that each voter has more votes than there are electable candidates, and for every 2 (or more) positive votes they cast, they may optionally cast a negative vote. In other words, voters have to select multiple acceptable outcomes if they also want to cast the negative vote. This encourages consensus building and hopefully rational thought, and the results indicate not just who won by the greatest number of votes, but also who is the most acceptable and who the most controversial or even not acceptable.
(I say "who" but it can just as well be "what". The system has for example been used for participatory budgeting in New York.)
New contributor
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment |
Check out Democracy 2.1. It is a proposed voting system whose advantage is that it produces less controversial and more consensual outcomes. The idea is that each voter has more votes than there are electable candidates, and for every 2 (or more) positive votes they cast, they may optionally cast a negative vote. In other words, voters have to select multiple acceptable outcomes if they also want to cast the negative vote. This encourages consensus building and hopefully rational thought, and the results indicate not just who won by the greatest number of votes, but also who is the most acceptable and who the most controversial or even not acceptable.
(I say "who" but it can just as well be "what". The system has for example been used for participatory budgeting in New York.)
New contributor
Check out Democracy 2.1. It is a proposed voting system whose advantage is that it produces less controversial and more consensual outcomes. The idea is that each voter has more votes than there are electable candidates, and for every 2 (or more) positive votes they cast, they may optionally cast a negative vote. In other words, voters have to select multiple acceptable outcomes if they also want to cast the negative vote. This encourages consensus building and hopefully rational thought, and the results indicate not just who won by the greatest number of votes, but also who is the most acceptable and who the most controversial or even not acceptable.
(I say "who" but it can just as well be "what". The system has for example been used for participatory budgeting in New York.)
New contributor
New contributor
answered 13 hours ago
user1224797user1224797
191
191
New contributor
New contributor
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment |
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
It sounds like CAV but with additional restrictions "For every minus vote cast, voters must cast at least twice as many plus votes." It's not strictly what the OP is asking about.
– Fizz
7 hours ago
add a comment |
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If you think negative campaigning is bad now (in plurality/first-past-the-post systems where most voters think A and B are their only choices, so a vote for A is against B and vice versa), wait until people can literally vote against a candidate to see how bad negative ads, rumor-mongering, and other smears can get.
– Monty Harder
14 hours ago
3
@MontyHarder off topic, but no, that would backfire and give you negative votes, too. This type of system eliminates vote splitting, so two candidates attacking each other will just help a third win
– endolith
12 hours ago
1
@FrankHopkins So what you're saying is that it would reduce negative campaigning compared to our current system? :)
– endolith
10 hours ago
1
@Dunk: that has more to do with the [sefl-]selection bias of the SE users. And with the fact that the "ballot" here is ordered by the result of the previous rounds of voting, which creates an obvious bandwagon effect especially since new voters likely don't have an answer of their own, i.e. they upvote the first plausible and previously (most) upvoted answer. In fact this very question has examples of that!
– Fizz
7 hours ago
1
Yes, it happens partially in Latvia in that you vote for a party, but can up/downvote actual people from the list of candidates of that party.
– Gnudiff
2 hours ago