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What is that cylinder on cables?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
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}







81















There's always that pesky cylinder thing on every cable I have.



The pesky cylinder thing.



What is it?



And more importantly, why don't Apple's products have them?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:16






  • 20





    It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

    – ja72
    Dec 3 '10 at 0:15






  • 9





    Apple products are Magical™

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 1:38






  • 6





    @digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

    – Joe Taylor
    Dec 3 '10 at 14:51






  • 7





    For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

    – Flotsam N. Jetsam
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:58


















81















There's always that pesky cylinder thing on every cable I have.



The pesky cylinder thing.



What is it?



And more importantly, why don't Apple's products have them?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:16






  • 20





    It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

    – ja72
    Dec 3 '10 at 0:15






  • 9





    Apple products are Magical™

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 1:38






  • 6





    @digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

    – Joe Taylor
    Dec 3 '10 at 14:51






  • 7





    For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

    – Flotsam N. Jetsam
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:58














81












81








81


14






There's always that pesky cylinder thing on every cable I have.



The pesky cylinder thing.



What is it?



And more importantly, why don't Apple's products have them?










share|improve this question














There's always that pesky cylinder thing on every cable I have.



The pesky cylinder thing.



What is it?



And more importantly, why don't Apple's products have them?







cable






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Dec 2 '10 at 22:14









digitxpdigitxp

11.7k74975




11.7k74975








  • 1





    as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:16






  • 20





    It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

    – ja72
    Dec 3 '10 at 0:15






  • 9





    Apple products are Magical™

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 1:38






  • 6





    @digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

    – Joe Taylor
    Dec 3 '10 at 14:51






  • 7





    For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

    – Flotsam N. Jetsam
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:58














  • 1





    as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:16






  • 20





    It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

    – ja72
    Dec 3 '10 at 0:15






  • 9





    Apple products are Magical™

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 1:38






  • 6





    @digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

    – Joe Taylor
    Dec 3 '10 at 14:51






  • 7





    For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

    – Flotsam N. Jetsam
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:58








1




1





as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

– Xantec
Dec 2 '10 at 22:16





as for what they are, i am pretty sure all of them are just a magnet (or magnets). I'm not 100% sure on their purpose.

– Xantec
Dec 2 '10 at 22:16




20




20





It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

– ja72
Dec 3 '10 at 0:15





It so you can't push the cable through small holes. (Joking)

– ja72
Dec 3 '10 at 0:15




9




9





Apple products are Magical™

– Sathyajith Bhat
Dec 3 '10 at 1:38





Apple products are Magical™

– Sathyajith Bhat
Dec 3 '10 at 1:38




6




6





@digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

– Joe Taylor
Dec 3 '10 at 14:51





@digitxp - No Steve Jobs is omnipresent, a little like God, and so he knows everything anyway. No need for spy equipment.

– Joe Taylor
Dec 3 '10 at 14:51




7




7





For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

– Flotsam N. Jetsam
Dec 3 '10 at 15:58





For Pete's sake, if getting reputation is this easy, I've got some "thingy's" I need to ask about...

– Flotsam N. Jetsam
Dec 3 '10 at 15:58










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















33














As others have pointed out this is a ferrite core used to reduce the electromagnetic interference produced by the cable.



The European Union updated the EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) directive in 2004:




The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep [electromagnetic interference] under reasonable control. EMC designates all the existing and future techniques and technologies for reducing disturbance and enhancing immunity.




To market an electronics product in the EU you have to comply with the EMC directive. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I would assume that slapping ferrite cores on your cables will help you comply with the directive using a "better safe than sorry" approach. Years back when these ferrite cores started appearing they were often delivered separately and you would have to fit them on the cables yourself as instructed. This was a strong indication to me that the ferrite cores was a market specific thing.



Perhaps Apple has done a proper EMC analysis and determined that the their equipment is in compliance even without ferrite cores? Or maybe you only get cables without the ferrite core for markets outside the EU?



Late addition - Wikipedia link on Ferrite Beads






share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

    – Piskvor
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:48











  • +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

    – Jacksonkr
    Jun 24 '16 at 17:16



















50














Take a look here for a very good explanation:
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.



They're ferrite beads used as an anti-EMI and anti-RFI measure (chokes):




Another source of noise is the cables connecting the devices. These cables act as nice, long antennae for the signals they carry. They broadcast the signals quite efficiently. The signals they broadcast can interfere with radios and TVs. The cables can also receive signals and transmit them into the case, where they cause problems. A ferrite bead has the property of eliminating the broadcast signals. Essentially, it "chokes" the RFI transmission at that point on the cable -- this is why you find the beads at the ends of the cables. Instead of traveling down the cable and transmitting, the RFI signals turn into heat in the bead.







share|improve this answer





















  • 1





    further technical info at Wikipedia

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:54






  • 5





    I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

    – Skizz
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:47



















17














Its a ferrite core, basically it reduces/filters out interference on the cable.






share|improve this answer



















  • 12





    And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

    – Arjan
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:38






  • 1





    Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 3:56











  • @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

    – Sven
    Dec 3 '10 at 8:24



















12














Cables act as antennas receiving high frequency signals on top of the power / data being sent over the cable. The ferrite adds inductance which attenuates or reduces the unwanted signal while allowing the lower frequency power / data to go through. They act as filters.



Ferrite cores are also found inside equipment on cabling. I suspect Apple has their filtering inside their equipment instead of on the exterior cabling.






share|improve this answer






















    protected by Ivo Flipse Dec 29 '10 at 9:40



    Thank you for your interest in this question.
    Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



    Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?














    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes








    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    33














    As others have pointed out this is a ferrite core used to reduce the electromagnetic interference produced by the cable.



    The European Union updated the EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) directive in 2004:




    The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep [electromagnetic interference] under reasonable control. EMC designates all the existing and future techniques and technologies for reducing disturbance and enhancing immunity.




    To market an electronics product in the EU you have to comply with the EMC directive. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I would assume that slapping ferrite cores on your cables will help you comply with the directive using a "better safe than sorry" approach. Years back when these ferrite cores started appearing they were often delivered separately and you would have to fit them on the cables yourself as instructed. This was a strong indication to me that the ferrite cores was a market specific thing.



    Perhaps Apple has done a proper EMC analysis and determined that the their equipment is in compliance even without ferrite cores? Or maybe you only get cables without the ferrite core for markets outside the EU?



    Late addition - Wikipedia link on Ferrite Beads






    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

      – Piskvor
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:48











    • +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

      – Jacksonkr
      Jun 24 '16 at 17:16
















    33














    As others have pointed out this is a ferrite core used to reduce the electromagnetic interference produced by the cable.



    The European Union updated the EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) directive in 2004:




    The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep [electromagnetic interference] under reasonable control. EMC designates all the existing and future techniques and technologies for reducing disturbance and enhancing immunity.




    To market an electronics product in the EU you have to comply with the EMC directive. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I would assume that slapping ferrite cores on your cables will help you comply with the directive using a "better safe than sorry" approach. Years back when these ferrite cores started appearing they were often delivered separately and you would have to fit them on the cables yourself as instructed. This was a strong indication to me that the ferrite cores was a market specific thing.



    Perhaps Apple has done a proper EMC analysis and determined that the their equipment is in compliance even without ferrite cores? Or maybe you only get cables without the ferrite core for markets outside the EU?



    Late addition - Wikipedia link on Ferrite Beads






    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

      – Piskvor
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:48











    • +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

      – Jacksonkr
      Jun 24 '16 at 17:16














    33












    33








    33







    As others have pointed out this is a ferrite core used to reduce the electromagnetic interference produced by the cable.



    The European Union updated the EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) directive in 2004:




    The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep [electromagnetic interference] under reasonable control. EMC designates all the existing and future techniques and technologies for reducing disturbance and enhancing immunity.




    To market an electronics product in the EU you have to comply with the EMC directive. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I would assume that slapping ferrite cores on your cables will help you comply with the directive using a "better safe than sorry" approach. Years back when these ferrite cores started appearing they were often delivered separately and you would have to fit them on the cables yourself as instructed. This was a strong indication to me that the ferrite cores was a market specific thing.



    Perhaps Apple has done a proper EMC analysis and determined that the their equipment is in compliance even without ferrite cores? Or maybe you only get cables without the ferrite core for markets outside the EU?



    Late addition - Wikipedia link on Ferrite Beads






    share|improve this answer















    As others have pointed out this is a ferrite core used to reduce the electromagnetic interference produced by the cable.



    The European Union updated the EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) directive in 2004:




    The purpose of electromagnetic compatibility (EMC) is to keep [electromagnetic interference] under reasonable control. EMC designates all the existing and future techniques and technologies for reducing disturbance and enhancing immunity.




    To market an electronics product in the EU you have to comply with the EMC directive. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I would assume that slapping ferrite cores on your cables will help you comply with the directive using a "better safe than sorry" approach. Years back when these ferrite cores started appearing they were often delivered separately and you would have to fit them on the cables yourself as instructed. This was a strong indication to me that the ferrite cores was a market specific thing.



    Perhaps Apple has done a proper EMC analysis and determined that the their equipment is in compliance even without ferrite cores? Or maybe you only get cables without the ferrite core for markets outside the EU?



    Late addition - Wikipedia link on Ferrite Beads







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 4 hours ago









    Tetsujin

    16.1k53462




    16.1k53462










    answered Dec 3 '10 at 13:12









    Martin LiversageMartin Liversage

    91111020




    91111020








    • 1





      Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

      – Piskvor
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:48











    • +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

      – Jacksonkr
      Jun 24 '16 at 17:16














    • 1





      Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

      – Piskvor
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:48











    • +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

      – Jacksonkr
      Jun 24 '16 at 17:16








    1




    1





    Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

    – Piskvor
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:48





    Uh, looking at the collection of cables coming out of my workstation, only about half of them have these cores - this varies even on the same type of cable (2 USB to USB-mini A, one has it, other one not). All the cables were bought in the past few years from electronics shops inside the EU. Interesting...maybe USB cables don't need them, but some vendors slap them on in the hope of reducing interference?

    – Piskvor
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:48













    +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

    – Jacksonkr
    Jun 24 '16 at 17:16





    +1 for addressing the apple issue, or at least an attempt to.

    – Jacksonkr
    Jun 24 '16 at 17:16













    50














    Take a look here for a very good explanation:
    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.



    They're ferrite beads used as an anti-EMI and anti-RFI measure (chokes):




    Another source of noise is the cables connecting the devices. These cables act as nice, long antennae for the signals they carry. They broadcast the signals quite efficiently. The signals they broadcast can interfere with radios and TVs. The cables can also receive signals and transmit them into the case, where they cause problems. A ferrite bead has the property of eliminating the broadcast signals. Essentially, it "chokes" the RFI transmission at that point on the cable -- this is why you find the beads at the ends of the cables. Instead of traveling down the cable and transmitting, the RFI signals turn into heat in the bead.







    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      further technical info at Wikipedia

      – Xantec
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:54






    • 5





      I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

      – Skizz
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:47
















    50














    Take a look here for a very good explanation:
    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.



    They're ferrite beads used as an anti-EMI and anti-RFI measure (chokes):




    Another source of noise is the cables connecting the devices. These cables act as nice, long antennae for the signals they carry. They broadcast the signals quite efficiently. The signals they broadcast can interfere with radios and TVs. The cables can also receive signals and transmit them into the case, where they cause problems. A ferrite bead has the property of eliminating the broadcast signals. Essentially, it "chokes" the RFI transmission at that point on the cable -- this is why you find the beads at the ends of the cables. Instead of traveling down the cable and transmitting, the RFI signals turn into heat in the bead.







    share|improve this answer





















    • 1





      further technical info at Wikipedia

      – Xantec
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:54






    • 5





      I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

      – Skizz
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:47














    50












    50








    50







    Take a look here for a very good explanation:
    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.



    They're ferrite beads used as an anti-EMI and anti-RFI measure (chokes):




    Another source of noise is the cables connecting the devices. These cables act as nice, long antennae for the signals they carry. They broadcast the signals quite efficiently. The signals they broadcast can interfere with radios and TVs. The cables can also receive signals and transmit them into the case, where they cause problems. A ferrite bead has the property of eliminating the broadcast signals. Essentially, it "chokes" the RFI transmission at that point on the cable -- this is why you find the beads at the ends of the cables. Instead of traveling down the cable and transmitting, the RFI signals turn into heat in the bead.







    share|improve this answer















    Take a look here for a very good explanation:
    http://computer.howstuffworks.com/question352.



    They're ferrite beads used as an anti-EMI and anti-RFI measure (chokes):




    Another source of noise is the cables connecting the devices. These cables act as nice, long antennae for the signals they carry. They broadcast the signals quite efficiently. The signals they broadcast can interfere with radios and TVs. The cables can also receive signals and transmit them into the case, where they cause problems. A ferrite bead has the property of eliminating the broadcast signals. Essentially, it "chokes" the RFI transmission at that point on the cable -- this is why you find the beads at the ends of the cables. Instead of traveling down the cable and transmitting, the RFI signals turn into heat in the bead.








    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited Dec 4 '10 at 2:26









    digitxp

    11.7k74975




    11.7k74975










    answered Dec 2 '10 at 22:38









    icyrock.comicyrock.com

    4,38812526




    4,38812526








    • 1





      further technical info at Wikipedia

      – Xantec
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:54






    • 5





      I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

      – Skizz
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:47














    • 1





      further technical info at Wikipedia

      – Xantec
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:54






    • 5





      I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

      – Skizz
      Dec 3 '10 at 15:47








    1




    1





    further technical info at Wikipedia

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:54





    further technical info at Wikipedia

    – Xantec
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:54




    5




    5





    I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

    – Skizz
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:47





    I believe that it is called a 'choke' by electronic engineers.

    – Skizz
    Dec 3 '10 at 15:47











    17














    Its a ferrite core, basically it reduces/filters out interference on the cable.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 12





      And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

      – Arjan
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:38






    • 1





      Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

      – Sathyajith Bhat
      Dec 3 '10 at 3:56











    • @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

      – Sven
      Dec 3 '10 at 8:24
















    17














    Its a ferrite core, basically it reduces/filters out interference on the cable.






    share|improve this answer



















    • 12





      And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

      – Arjan
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:38






    • 1





      Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

      – Sathyajith Bhat
      Dec 3 '10 at 3:56











    • @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

      – Sven
      Dec 3 '10 at 8:24














    17












    17








    17







    Its a ferrite core, basically it reduces/filters out interference on the cable.






    share|improve this answer













    Its a ferrite core, basically it reduces/filters out interference on the cable.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered Dec 2 '10 at 22:26









    MaQleodMaQleod

    12.3k43156




    12.3k43156








    • 12





      And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

      – Arjan
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:38






    • 1





      Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

      – Sathyajith Bhat
      Dec 3 '10 at 3:56











    • @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

      – Sven
      Dec 3 '10 at 8:24














    • 12





      And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

      – Arjan
      Dec 2 '10 at 22:38






    • 1





      Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

      – Sathyajith Bhat
      Dec 3 '10 at 3:56











    • @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

      – Sven
      Dec 3 '10 at 8:24








    12




    12





    And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

    – Arjan
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:38





    And just to be sure; that's not a magnet! ;-)

    – Arjan
    Dec 2 '10 at 22:38




    1




    1





    Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 3:56





    Magnets have ferrite cores, right ?

    – Sathyajith Bhat
    Dec 3 '10 at 3:56













    @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

    – Sven
    Dec 3 '10 at 8:24





    @Sathya: No, some magnets are made from ferrites, but there are lots of other materials magnets can be made from.

    – Sven
    Dec 3 '10 at 8:24











    12














    Cables act as antennas receiving high frequency signals on top of the power / data being sent over the cable. The ferrite adds inductance which attenuates or reduces the unwanted signal while allowing the lower frequency power / data to go through. They act as filters.



    Ferrite cores are also found inside equipment on cabling. I suspect Apple has their filtering inside their equipment instead of on the exterior cabling.






    share|improve this answer




























      12














      Cables act as antennas receiving high frequency signals on top of the power / data being sent over the cable. The ferrite adds inductance which attenuates or reduces the unwanted signal while allowing the lower frequency power / data to go through. They act as filters.



      Ferrite cores are also found inside equipment on cabling. I suspect Apple has their filtering inside their equipment instead of on the exterior cabling.






      share|improve this answer


























        12












        12








        12







        Cables act as antennas receiving high frequency signals on top of the power / data being sent over the cable. The ferrite adds inductance which attenuates or reduces the unwanted signal while allowing the lower frequency power / data to go through. They act as filters.



        Ferrite cores are also found inside equipment on cabling. I suspect Apple has their filtering inside their equipment instead of on the exterior cabling.






        share|improve this answer













        Cables act as antennas receiving high frequency signals on top of the power / data being sent over the cable. The ferrite adds inductance which attenuates or reduces the unwanted signal while allowing the lower frequency power / data to go through. They act as filters.



        Ferrite cores are also found inside equipment on cabling. I suspect Apple has their filtering inside their equipment instead of on the exterior cabling.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered Dec 3 '10 at 15:47









        Jim CJim C

        1,71811117




        1,71811117

















            protected by Ivo Flipse Dec 29 '10 at 9:40



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