The use of the spellings -zz- vs. -z-Difference between ò and ó?List of pairs of words (having different...
Should I reinstall Linux when changing the laptop's CPU?
Do authors have to be politically correct in article-writing?
Why publish a research paper when a blog post or a lecture slide can have more citation count than a journal paper?
Is it possible to grant users sftp access without shell access? If yes, how is it implemented?
Why is working on the same position for more than 15 years not a red flag?
Difference between i++ and (i)++ in C
What would the chemical name be for C13H8Cl3NO
Use two 8s and two 3s to make the number 24
How much mayhem could I cause as a sentient fish?
Why is it that Bernie Sanders is always called a "socialist"?
Why was Lupin comfortable with saying Voldemort's name?
Has any human ever had the choice to leave Earth permanently?
Early credit roll before the end of the film
Citing paywalled articles accessed via illegal web sharing
Flipping axis on a LogPlot
Absorbing damage with Planeswalker
How to change a n value for a value like X
How can I get my players to come to the game session after agreeing to a date?
Is there any risk in sharing info about technologies and products we use with a supplier?
How can I play a serial killer in a party of good PCs?
Odd 74HCT1G125 behaviour
Nested word series [humans only]
Can you tell from a blurry photo if focus was too close or too far?
What is the most fuel efficient way out of the Solar System?
The use of the spellings -zz- vs. -z-
Difference between ò and ó?List of pairs of words (having different meaning) differing only in a stressed final e vowel (which must be either è or é)?How children learn spelling and pronounciation (in elementary). Italian-speaking kids versus English-speaking kids.Complete list of nonforeign spelling exceptions involving the use of the letter “h” in Italian?Any Italians pronouncing pèsca and pésca differently?I need to know how to pronounce the name “Job” in ItalianWhat words that have vowel + s + vowel are pronunced /s/ instead of /z/?Are certain single vowel words merely dropped?Why are the endings to these two words pronounced differently? Mangia ~ GenealogiaDoes R + vowel at starts of a word pronounce like RR?
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
|
show 1 more comment
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Is there any reason why some words are spelled with -zz-, but others are spelled with -z- between vowels?
My understanding is that either spelling can correspond to either of the following two consonant sounds: a long voiceless affricate [t.t͡s] or a long voiced affricate [d.d͡z]. (Phonologically, I've seen sources that indicate that Italian speakers may think of these as /t͡s.t͡s/ and /d͡z.d͡z/ respectively.) The linguistic sources I've read say that single [t͡s] and [d͡z] don't occur between vowels in (standard) Italian.
But some introductory descriptions that I see online use wishy-washy phrasing, like this one here:
Double z is pronounced almost the same as single z.
("Italian Language Guide". Bolding added by me.)
Is there any basis for saying that Italian speakers really pronounce -zz- "almost" the same as -z- rather than exactly the same as -z- (between vowels)?
If they are pronounced the same (as I think), why are some words spelled with -zz- and others with -z-?
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
pronunciation spelling geminate-consonants
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 44 mins ago
sumelic
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
asked 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago
1
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "524"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fitalian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f10303%2fthe-use-of-the-spellings-zz-vs-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
This isn't a complete answer, but while Googling to try to find out more, I came across the following explanation for why some speakers might think there is a difference in pronunciation:
The orthographic distinction between 'z' and 'zz' induces some speakers to distinguish length in pronunciation (spazi 'spaces' spatsi vs. spazzi 'you sweep' spattsi) despite the fact that, in the standard language, both spellings are pronounced long in intervocalic position. Given that northern Italians often fail to observe consonantal length distinctions, in their speech the differentiation of the two 'z''s may arise from hypercorrection.
(Martin Maiden, 1994, A Linguistic History of Italian, 3.1.3.4)
Maiden goes on to say that
In some southern varieties, however, 'z' is pronounced long when it continues original consonant + [tj] (e.g. in concezione 'conception', azione 'action' < conceptionem, actionem), but short when it continues original vowel + [tj] (e.g. in nazione 'nation', stazione 'station' < nationem, stationem).
But the distinction for this group of speakers doesn't seem to be related to the spelling. So I still don't know where the -zz- vs. -z- spelling distinction comes from.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 4 hours ago
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
answered 4 hours ago
sumelicsumelic
1415
1415
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
sumelic is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
sumelic is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Italian Language Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fitalian.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f10303%2fthe-use-of-the-spellings-zz-vs-z%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
Welcome to Italian.SE!
– Charo♦
1 hour ago
Given how widely pronunciation varies among the speakers, I am skeptical of any linguistic source saying that this or that phoneme "doesn't occur". My intuition is that, since Italian is a language that was "written first, spoken later", whoever came up with those words imagined a distinction between z and zz (possibly due to the spelling in Greek?), but then speakers did pretty much whatever they wanted. I'll try to see if I can find some more concrete sources.
– Denis Nardin♦
51 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Those source probably simply refer to Standard Italian.
– DaG
44 mins ago
@DenisNardin: Regional differences are a thing, but so is standard pronunciation, and learners as well as native speakers should be encouraged to stick to that (studying it). Some regional parlances are more frowned upon than others, but that's another thing.
– Vincenzo Oliva
21 mins ago
@VincenzoOliva You have a point with learners, but I will respectfully disagree with respect to native speakers. But my point was that this phenomenon has probably developed in the opposite order than posited in the question: first someone decided the spelling (based on who knows what, maybe their own phontactics, maybe historical spelling in Greek), and then centuries later the standard pronunciation was established (presumably sometime in the nineteenth century), so the question would be more"why did the standard pronunciation disallows [t.ts]?",rather than "why is [ts] spelled like zz?"
– Denis Nardin♦
13 mins ago