How would this chord from “Rocket Man” be analyzed? Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another...

I preordered a game on my Xbox while on the home screen of my friend's account. Which of us owns the game?

Jaya, Venerated Firemage + Chandra's Pyrohelix = 4 damage among two targets?

Why didn't the Space Shuttle bounce back into space as many times as possible so as to lose a lot of kinetic energy up there?

Can a stored procedure reference the database in which it is stored?

How to avoid introduction cliches

All ASCII characters with a given bit count

finding a tangent line to a parabola

Why doesn't the standard consider a template constructor as a copy constructor?

Co-worker works way more than he should

How much cash can I safely carry into the USA and avoid civil forfeiture?

Which big number is bigger?

Philosophical question on logistic regression: why isn't the optimal threshold value trained?

Why must Chinese maps be obfuscated?

What's the difference between using dependency injection with a container and using a service locator?

Suing a Police Officer Instead of the Police Department

Should the Product Owner dictate what info the UI needs to display?

Why did C use the -> operator instead of reusing the . operator?

Check if a string is entirely made of the same substring

Retract an already submitted recommendation letter (written for an undergrad student)

How much of a wave function must reside inside event horizon for it to be consumed by the black hole?

Crossed out red box fitting tightly around image

How to have a sharp product image?

view price of already bought and installed apps on play sotr

Multiple fireplaces in an apartment building?



How would this chord from “Rocket Man” be analyzed?



Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraHow would you interpret this chord progression?How would you finger this Cmaj9 chord?Analyzing Hisaishi Joe's Song “Reprise”What chord would this most logically be thought as?F Dm Am C (Lydian?) ProgressionDoes this chord function as a 13 chord?Can this note be analyzed as a non-chord tone?How can the intro to the song “If I Fell” be analyzed?How can this triad from the song “Believe” be analyzed?How is this chord from Liebestraum No. 3 analyzed?












11















[Chorus:]
Bb Eb
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time
Bb
'Till touch down brings me roung again to find
Eb
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Bb C
Oh no, no, no, I'm a rocket man
Eb Bb
Rocket man, burning out his fuse up here alone


Simple question here but want to know what the better option would be. In the chorus to Elton John's "Rocket Man" (in B-flat major), there is a C major chord.



Would it be best to analyze the C major chord as V/V, or as a borrowed chord from B-flat lydian, or something else?



I don't know if it is a good option to analyze a chord as a secondary chord unless it resolves to that chord (or as a deceptive resolution, ex. V/V to vi/V).



I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks.










share|improve this question




















  • 4





    Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

    – Tim
    yesterday











  • I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 2





    I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

    – Todd Wilcox
    yesterday











  • Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 1





    Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

    – user45266
    yesterday


















11















[Chorus:]
Bb Eb
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time
Bb
'Till touch down brings me roung again to find
Eb
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Bb C
Oh no, no, no, I'm a rocket man
Eb Bb
Rocket man, burning out his fuse up here alone


Simple question here but want to know what the better option would be. In the chorus to Elton John's "Rocket Man" (in B-flat major), there is a C major chord.



Would it be best to analyze the C major chord as V/V, or as a borrowed chord from B-flat lydian, or something else?



I don't know if it is a good option to analyze a chord as a secondary chord unless it resolves to that chord (or as a deceptive resolution, ex. V/V to vi/V).



I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks.










share|improve this question




















  • 4





    Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

    – Tim
    yesterday











  • I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 2





    I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

    – Todd Wilcox
    yesterday











  • Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 1





    Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

    – user45266
    yesterday
















11












11








11


1






[Chorus:]
Bb Eb
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time
Bb
'Till touch down brings me roung again to find
Eb
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Bb C
Oh no, no, no, I'm a rocket man
Eb Bb
Rocket man, burning out his fuse up here alone


Simple question here but want to know what the better option would be. In the chorus to Elton John's "Rocket Man" (in B-flat major), there is a C major chord.



Would it be best to analyze the C major chord as V/V, or as a borrowed chord from B-flat lydian, or something else?



I don't know if it is a good option to analyze a chord as a secondary chord unless it resolves to that chord (or as a deceptive resolution, ex. V/V to vi/V).



I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks.










share|improve this question
















[Chorus:]
Bb Eb
And I think it's gonna be a long, long time
Bb
'Till touch down brings me roung again to find
Eb
I'm not the man they think I am at home
Bb C
Oh no, no, no, I'm a rocket man
Eb Bb
Rocket man, burning out his fuse up here alone


Simple question here but want to know what the better option would be. In the chorus to Elton John's "Rocket Man" (in B-flat major), there is a C major chord.



Would it be best to analyze the C major chord as V/V, or as a borrowed chord from B-flat lydian, or something else?



I don't know if it is a good option to analyze a chord as a secondary chord unless it resolves to that chord (or as a deceptive resolution, ex. V/V to vi/V).



I'd appreciate any thoughts on this. Thanks.







theory chords chord-theory analysis






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago









Tobia Tesan

26518




26518










asked yesterday









Lennon_AshtonLennon_Ashton

20512




20512








  • 4





    Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

    – Tim
    yesterday











  • I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 2





    I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

    – Todd Wilcox
    yesterday











  • Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 1





    Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

    – user45266
    yesterday
















  • 4





    Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

    – Tim
    yesterday











  • I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 2





    I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

    – Todd Wilcox
    yesterday











  • Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

    – Lennon_Ashton
    yesterday






  • 1





    Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

    – user45266
    yesterday










4




4





Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

– Tim
yesterday





Just like the Beatles 'Eight Days a Week' for one.

– Tim
yesterday













I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

– Lennon_Ashton
yesterday





I know the chromatic line based on the chords helps the chords flow more smoothly (starting with the Bb chord, F-E-Eb-D). As you said, this chord progression occurs in that song too.

– Lennon_Ashton
yesterday




2




2





I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

– Todd Wilcox
yesterday





I’m not an expert but if a chord is not followed by a chord that has a root a fifth lower, then it seems to make less sense to me to view it as a “V/“ anything. In other words, I wouldn’t normally view it as “V/V” if it’s not followed by the V chord.

– Todd Wilcox
yesterday













Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

– Lennon_Ashton
yesterday





Right, exactly. That is what I was thinking and why I'm wondering what a better analysis would be.

– Lennon_Ashton
yesterday




1




1





Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

– user45266
yesterday







Another option to consider for analysing this chord besides V/V or a lydian motif might simply be as the II chord.

– user45266
yesterday












4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















13














To answer the question of whether the C chord is "really" V of V, you need to remember one simple fact about music.



When you listen to music, you hear it progressing in time.



Therefore, analysing any chord in terms of "what comes after it" by looking at the score is just an intellectual exercise, if it has no relationship to what the music actually sounds like. A description like "V of V" only makes sense if the listener expects to be hearing common practice functional harmony, but that's not what the song is about.



The chorus starts with a Bb chord, followed by an Eb chord over the same Bb bass note. The cumulative effect of the Bb and Eb/Bb chords in fact destablilizes Bb as the "tonic" - we are used to hearing harmonic progressions that progress somewhere!



So when the C chord arrives, at last we have a progression! We don't know where we are progressing to yet, because we haven't heard what comes next, but at least we are going somewhere.



… except that actually we don't go anywhere, because the next chord is right back to Eb and then Bb again. But hey, that C was a nice surprise while it lasted.



You can replace the C with virtually any major chord get a similar effect. Try Db major, D major, Gb major, or G major, for example.



Bottom line: this isn't functional, common-practice harmony. Good luck trying to invent a functional-harmony name for a Db or Gb chord here, but they work as music. Elton John just happened to pick C instead. Maybe his backing band haven't learned Db or Gb chords yet … (just joking, of course).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago











  • I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

    – coconochao
    1 hour ago



















7














The other answers make the important points about analysis.



Not a secondary dominant V/V, because it isn't functioning as a dominant. The upper case II will provide a Roman numeral analysis symbol to show it is a major triad.



Some people call I II IV I a Lydian II progression and it's fairly common in pop/rock.



But, I want add one other point: notice the symbolism of that chord in relation to the lyrics. We have a root progression up by step from Bb to C and the normally minor ii has the third raised to make a major triad II. The C chord doesn't resolve in a typical functional way. You could say the chord goes up but doesn't come back down! That musical symbolism at the moment the lyrics say "...rocket man!" explains a lot about the emotional meaning of the chord when they don't fulfill the standard harmonic expectations.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

    – Ben Crowell
    22 hours ago






  • 1





    I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

    – Michael Curtis
    22 hours ago



















3














Somedays ago I've read somewhere that the Beatles had written many songs in modal harmony and not in major/minor. Looking at the chord progression my first association here has also been: Beatles. Yes, like others saying: Eight days a week!



So as there are certainly modal elements here ... it doesn't make sense to analyse it in RNA.



Except you could understand this solution: I-II-IV-I



my argumentation:



When I studied at Swiss Jazz School in the late sixties they didn't use the signs ii,iii, iv for minor chords. The notation was IIm, VIm etc. And the secondary dominant progression C-A7-D7-G7 was written as I-VI-II-V as a variant of I-VIm-IIm-V7 (I-vi-ii-V7). I know there are still different systems of writing chord progressions in Jazz.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

    – Michael Curtis
    23 hours ago






  • 1





    That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    23 hours ago





















3














I'm going to go against the grain with other answers here and say that the C is in fact a V/V since it does in fact resolve to a V, albeit momentarily. Listening to the recording, there's a momentary F in the piano before resolving to Bb which serves as the V/V-V-I resolution we're expecting. It also make sense to play it this way as the voice leading is no longer parallel.



This is also more pleasant to the ear than an unresolved C in the middle of an (admittedly key vague) piece. You'll find that if you play the chords without putting some leading tones in between C and the next chord (Bb again) it sounds quite odd. It's certainly odd to hang out on the V/V, and this provides a certain tension, but I think it's quite functional in terms of the harmony.



I should also point out that this answer doesn't invalidate other answers, and it's entirely subjective really - all music is. However, I hear the V fairly well despite the fact that it's buried in the mix, and I want to say that it makes just as much sense to my ears.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago












Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f84185%2fhow-would-this-chord-from-rocket-man-be-analyzed%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes








4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









13














To answer the question of whether the C chord is "really" V of V, you need to remember one simple fact about music.



When you listen to music, you hear it progressing in time.



Therefore, analysing any chord in terms of "what comes after it" by looking at the score is just an intellectual exercise, if it has no relationship to what the music actually sounds like. A description like "V of V" only makes sense if the listener expects to be hearing common practice functional harmony, but that's not what the song is about.



The chorus starts with a Bb chord, followed by an Eb chord over the same Bb bass note. The cumulative effect of the Bb and Eb/Bb chords in fact destablilizes Bb as the "tonic" - we are used to hearing harmonic progressions that progress somewhere!



So when the C chord arrives, at last we have a progression! We don't know where we are progressing to yet, because we haven't heard what comes next, but at least we are going somewhere.



… except that actually we don't go anywhere, because the next chord is right back to Eb and then Bb again. But hey, that C was a nice surprise while it lasted.



You can replace the C with virtually any major chord get a similar effect. Try Db major, D major, Gb major, or G major, for example.



Bottom line: this isn't functional, common-practice harmony. Good luck trying to invent a functional-harmony name for a Db or Gb chord here, but they work as music. Elton John just happened to pick C instead. Maybe his backing band haven't learned Db or Gb chords yet … (just joking, of course).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago











  • I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

    – coconochao
    1 hour ago
















13














To answer the question of whether the C chord is "really" V of V, you need to remember one simple fact about music.



When you listen to music, you hear it progressing in time.



Therefore, analysing any chord in terms of "what comes after it" by looking at the score is just an intellectual exercise, if it has no relationship to what the music actually sounds like. A description like "V of V" only makes sense if the listener expects to be hearing common practice functional harmony, but that's not what the song is about.



The chorus starts with a Bb chord, followed by an Eb chord over the same Bb bass note. The cumulative effect of the Bb and Eb/Bb chords in fact destablilizes Bb as the "tonic" - we are used to hearing harmonic progressions that progress somewhere!



So when the C chord arrives, at last we have a progression! We don't know where we are progressing to yet, because we haven't heard what comes next, but at least we are going somewhere.



… except that actually we don't go anywhere, because the next chord is right back to Eb and then Bb again. But hey, that C was a nice surprise while it lasted.



You can replace the C with virtually any major chord get a similar effect. Try Db major, D major, Gb major, or G major, for example.



Bottom line: this isn't functional, common-practice harmony. Good luck trying to invent a functional-harmony name for a Db or Gb chord here, but they work as music. Elton John just happened to pick C instead. Maybe his backing band haven't learned Db or Gb chords yet … (just joking, of course).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago











  • I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

    – coconochao
    1 hour ago














13












13








13







To answer the question of whether the C chord is "really" V of V, you need to remember one simple fact about music.



When you listen to music, you hear it progressing in time.



Therefore, analysing any chord in terms of "what comes after it" by looking at the score is just an intellectual exercise, if it has no relationship to what the music actually sounds like. A description like "V of V" only makes sense if the listener expects to be hearing common practice functional harmony, but that's not what the song is about.



The chorus starts with a Bb chord, followed by an Eb chord over the same Bb bass note. The cumulative effect of the Bb and Eb/Bb chords in fact destablilizes Bb as the "tonic" - we are used to hearing harmonic progressions that progress somewhere!



So when the C chord arrives, at last we have a progression! We don't know where we are progressing to yet, because we haven't heard what comes next, but at least we are going somewhere.



… except that actually we don't go anywhere, because the next chord is right back to Eb and then Bb again. But hey, that C was a nice surprise while it lasted.



You can replace the C with virtually any major chord get a similar effect. Try Db major, D major, Gb major, or G major, for example.



Bottom line: this isn't functional, common-practice harmony. Good luck trying to invent a functional-harmony name for a Db or Gb chord here, but they work as music. Elton John just happened to pick C instead. Maybe his backing band haven't learned Db or Gb chords yet … (just joking, of course).






share|improve this answer








New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










To answer the question of whether the C chord is "really" V of V, you need to remember one simple fact about music.



When you listen to music, you hear it progressing in time.



Therefore, analysing any chord in terms of "what comes after it" by looking at the score is just an intellectual exercise, if it has no relationship to what the music actually sounds like. A description like "V of V" only makes sense if the listener expects to be hearing common practice functional harmony, but that's not what the song is about.



The chorus starts with a Bb chord, followed by an Eb chord over the same Bb bass note. The cumulative effect of the Bb and Eb/Bb chords in fact destablilizes Bb as the "tonic" - we are used to hearing harmonic progressions that progress somewhere!



So when the C chord arrives, at last we have a progression! We don't know where we are progressing to yet, because we haven't heard what comes next, but at least we are going somewhere.



… except that actually we don't go anywhere, because the next chord is right back to Eb and then Bb again. But hey, that C was a nice surprise while it lasted.



You can replace the C with virtually any major chord get a similar effect. Try Db major, D major, Gb major, or G major, for example.



Bottom line: this isn't functional, common-practice harmony. Good luck trying to invent a functional-harmony name for a Db or Gb chord here, but they work as music. Elton John just happened to pick C instead. Maybe his backing band haven't learned Db or Gb chords yet … (just joking, of course).







share|improve this answer








New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered yesterday









guestguest

1972




1972




New contributor




guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago











  • I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

    – coconochao
    1 hour ago



















  • I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago











  • I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

    – coconochao
    1 hour ago

















I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

– trlkly
10 hours ago





I can't agree. This sounds entirely functional. It is just a bit of mode mixture, using the common Lydian chord progression of II-IV-I. It's perfectly common in rock music to have sections in Lydian or Mixolydian. Replacing the C with other chords does not have the same effect of being both surprising yet still entirely smooth and natural sounding.

– trlkly
10 hours ago













I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

– coconochao
1 hour ago





I am downvoting this answer because I disagree with some points. You say that the C is not part of an harmonic progression, and then somehow it isn't funcional harmony anymore? There is literally just one note off the scale and that makes it not functional harmony? This song is not atonal, nor modal, nor anything, it's 100% functional harmony.

– coconochao
1 hour ago











7














The other answers make the important points about analysis.



Not a secondary dominant V/V, because it isn't functioning as a dominant. The upper case II will provide a Roman numeral analysis symbol to show it is a major triad.



Some people call I II IV I a Lydian II progression and it's fairly common in pop/rock.



But, I want add one other point: notice the symbolism of that chord in relation to the lyrics. We have a root progression up by step from Bb to C and the normally minor ii has the third raised to make a major triad II. The C chord doesn't resolve in a typical functional way. You could say the chord goes up but doesn't come back down! That musical symbolism at the moment the lyrics say "...rocket man!" explains a lot about the emotional meaning of the chord when they don't fulfill the standard harmonic expectations.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

    – Ben Crowell
    22 hours ago






  • 1





    I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

    – Michael Curtis
    22 hours ago
















7














The other answers make the important points about analysis.



Not a secondary dominant V/V, because it isn't functioning as a dominant. The upper case II will provide a Roman numeral analysis symbol to show it is a major triad.



Some people call I II IV I a Lydian II progression and it's fairly common in pop/rock.



But, I want add one other point: notice the symbolism of that chord in relation to the lyrics. We have a root progression up by step from Bb to C and the normally minor ii has the third raised to make a major triad II. The C chord doesn't resolve in a typical functional way. You could say the chord goes up but doesn't come back down! That musical symbolism at the moment the lyrics say "...rocket man!" explains a lot about the emotional meaning of the chord when they don't fulfill the standard harmonic expectations.






share|improve this answer





















  • 3





    Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

    – Ben Crowell
    22 hours ago






  • 1





    I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

    – Michael Curtis
    22 hours ago














7












7








7







The other answers make the important points about analysis.



Not a secondary dominant V/V, because it isn't functioning as a dominant. The upper case II will provide a Roman numeral analysis symbol to show it is a major triad.



Some people call I II IV I a Lydian II progression and it's fairly common in pop/rock.



But, I want add one other point: notice the symbolism of that chord in relation to the lyrics. We have a root progression up by step from Bb to C and the normally minor ii has the third raised to make a major triad II. The C chord doesn't resolve in a typical functional way. You could say the chord goes up but doesn't come back down! That musical symbolism at the moment the lyrics say "...rocket man!" explains a lot about the emotional meaning of the chord when they don't fulfill the standard harmonic expectations.






share|improve this answer















The other answers make the important points about analysis.



Not a secondary dominant V/V, because it isn't functioning as a dominant. The upper case II will provide a Roman numeral analysis symbol to show it is a major triad.



Some people call I II IV I a Lydian II progression and it's fairly common in pop/rock.



But, I want add one other point: notice the symbolism of that chord in relation to the lyrics. We have a root progression up by step from Bb to C and the normally minor ii has the third raised to make a major triad II. The C chord doesn't resolve in a typical functional way. You could say the chord goes up but doesn't come back down! That musical symbolism at the moment the lyrics say "...rocket man!" explains a lot about the emotional meaning of the chord when they don't fulfill the standard harmonic expectations.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 23 hours ago

























answered 23 hours ago









Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

12.8k946




12.8k946








  • 3





    Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

    – Ben Crowell
    22 hours ago






  • 1





    I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

    – Michael Curtis
    22 hours ago














  • 3





    Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

    – Ben Crowell
    22 hours ago






  • 1





    I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

    – Michael Curtis
    22 hours ago








3




3





Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

– Ben Crowell
22 hours ago





Another point about the musical context is that in the arrangement I've heard, there is a synthesizer pitch slide from (I think) F up to C, which coincides with the arrival of the C chord. The slide is a very literal depiction of a rocket rising off the launch pad. The fact that it's a slide kind of blurs the focus on any specific triad or harmonic function.

– Ben Crowell
22 hours ago




1




1





I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

– Michael Curtis
22 hours ago





I've always wondered about that slide sound, if there is slide guitar in it?

– Michael Curtis
22 hours ago











3














Somedays ago I've read somewhere that the Beatles had written many songs in modal harmony and not in major/minor. Looking at the chord progression my first association here has also been: Beatles. Yes, like others saying: Eight days a week!



So as there are certainly modal elements here ... it doesn't make sense to analyse it in RNA.



Except you could understand this solution: I-II-IV-I



my argumentation:



When I studied at Swiss Jazz School in the late sixties they didn't use the signs ii,iii, iv for minor chords. The notation was IIm, VIm etc. And the secondary dominant progression C-A7-D7-G7 was written as I-VI-II-V as a variant of I-VIm-IIm-V7 (I-vi-ii-V7). I know there are still different systems of writing chord progressions in Jazz.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

    – Michael Curtis
    23 hours ago






  • 1





    That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    23 hours ago


















3














Somedays ago I've read somewhere that the Beatles had written many songs in modal harmony and not in major/minor. Looking at the chord progression my first association here has also been: Beatles. Yes, like others saying: Eight days a week!



So as there are certainly modal elements here ... it doesn't make sense to analyse it in RNA.



Except you could understand this solution: I-II-IV-I



my argumentation:



When I studied at Swiss Jazz School in the late sixties they didn't use the signs ii,iii, iv for minor chords. The notation was IIm, VIm etc. And the secondary dominant progression C-A7-D7-G7 was written as I-VI-II-V as a variant of I-VIm-IIm-V7 (I-vi-ii-V7). I know there are still different systems of writing chord progressions in Jazz.






share|improve this answer



















  • 1





    I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

    – Michael Curtis
    23 hours ago






  • 1





    That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    23 hours ago
















3












3








3







Somedays ago I've read somewhere that the Beatles had written many songs in modal harmony and not in major/minor. Looking at the chord progression my first association here has also been: Beatles. Yes, like others saying: Eight days a week!



So as there are certainly modal elements here ... it doesn't make sense to analyse it in RNA.



Except you could understand this solution: I-II-IV-I



my argumentation:



When I studied at Swiss Jazz School in the late sixties they didn't use the signs ii,iii, iv for minor chords. The notation was IIm, VIm etc. And the secondary dominant progression C-A7-D7-G7 was written as I-VI-II-V as a variant of I-VIm-IIm-V7 (I-vi-ii-V7). I know there are still different systems of writing chord progressions in Jazz.






share|improve this answer













Somedays ago I've read somewhere that the Beatles had written many songs in modal harmony and not in major/minor. Looking at the chord progression my first association here has also been: Beatles. Yes, like others saying: Eight days a week!



So as there are certainly modal elements here ... it doesn't make sense to analyse it in RNA.



Except you could understand this solution: I-II-IV-I



my argumentation:



When I studied at Swiss Jazz School in the late sixties they didn't use the signs ii,iii, iv for minor chords. The notation was IIm, VIm etc. And the secondary dominant progression C-A7-D7-G7 was written as I-VI-II-V as a variant of I-VIm-IIm-V7 (I-vi-ii-V7). I know there are still different systems of writing chord progressions in Jazz.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered yesterday









Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

5,2101420




5,2101420








  • 1





    I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

    – Michael Curtis
    23 hours ago






  • 1





    That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    23 hours ago
















  • 1





    I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

    – Michael Curtis
    23 hours ago






  • 1





    That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    23 hours ago










1




1





I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

– Michael Curtis
23 hours ago





I first read about "Lydian II" here angelfire.com/fl4/moneychords/lydianprogression.html

– Michael Curtis
23 hours ago




1




1





That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

– Albrecht Hügli
23 hours ago







That‘s it! I was also thinking of Lydian. For this I‘d call it the Beatles progression :)

– Albrecht Hügli
23 hours ago













3














I'm going to go against the grain with other answers here and say that the C is in fact a V/V since it does in fact resolve to a V, albeit momentarily. Listening to the recording, there's a momentary F in the piano before resolving to Bb which serves as the V/V-V-I resolution we're expecting. It also make sense to play it this way as the voice leading is no longer parallel.



This is also more pleasant to the ear than an unresolved C in the middle of an (admittedly key vague) piece. You'll find that if you play the chords without putting some leading tones in between C and the next chord (Bb again) it sounds quite odd. It's certainly odd to hang out on the V/V, and this provides a certain tension, but I think it's quite functional in terms of the harmony.



I should also point out that this answer doesn't invalidate other answers, and it's entirely subjective really - all music is. However, I hear the V fairly well despite the fact that it's buried in the mix, and I want to say that it makes just as much sense to my ears.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago
















3














I'm going to go against the grain with other answers here and say that the C is in fact a V/V since it does in fact resolve to a V, albeit momentarily. Listening to the recording, there's a momentary F in the piano before resolving to Bb which serves as the V/V-V-I resolution we're expecting. It also make sense to play it this way as the voice leading is no longer parallel.



This is also more pleasant to the ear than an unresolved C in the middle of an (admittedly key vague) piece. You'll find that if you play the chords without putting some leading tones in between C and the next chord (Bb again) it sounds quite odd. It's certainly odd to hang out on the V/V, and this provides a certain tension, but I think it's quite functional in terms of the harmony.



I should also point out that this answer doesn't invalidate other answers, and it's entirely subjective really - all music is. However, I hear the V fairly well despite the fact that it's buried in the mix, and I want to say that it makes just as much sense to my ears.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago














3












3








3







I'm going to go against the grain with other answers here and say that the C is in fact a V/V since it does in fact resolve to a V, albeit momentarily. Listening to the recording, there's a momentary F in the piano before resolving to Bb which serves as the V/V-V-I resolution we're expecting. It also make sense to play it this way as the voice leading is no longer parallel.



This is also more pleasant to the ear than an unresolved C in the middle of an (admittedly key vague) piece. You'll find that if you play the chords without putting some leading tones in between C and the next chord (Bb again) it sounds quite odd. It's certainly odd to hang out on the V/V, and this provides a certain tension, but I think it's quite functional in terms of the harmony.



I should also point out that this answer doesn't invalidate other answers, and it's entirely subjective really - all music is. However, I hear the V fairly well despite the fact that it's buried in the mix, and I want to say that it makes just as much sense to my ears.






share|improve this answer








New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.










I'm going to go against the grain with other answers here and say that the C is in fact a V/V since it does in fact resolve to a V, albeit momentarily. Listening to the recording, there's a momentary F in the piano before resolving to Bb which serves as the V/V-V-I resolution we're expecting. It also make sense to play it this way as the voice leading is no longer parallel.



This is also more pleasant to the ear than an unresolved C in the middle of an (admittedly key vague) piece. You'll find that if you play the chords without putting some leading tones in between C and the next chord (Bb again) it sounds quite odd. It's certainly odd to hang out on the V/V, and this provides a certain tension, but I think it's quite functional in terms of the harmony.



I should also point out that this answer doesn't invalidate other answers, and it's entirely subjective really - all music is. However, I hear the V fairly well despite the fact that it's buried in the mix, and I want to say that it makes just as much sense to my ears.







share|improve this answer








New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer






New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









answered 22 hours ago









gjsmogjsmo

311




311




New contributor




gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






gjsmo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago



















  • Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

    – trlkly
    10 hours ago

















Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

– trlkly
10 hours ago





Where does the Eb chord fit into what you hear? Do you mean you hear V/V-V-IV-I (C - F - Eb - Bb)?

– trlkly
10 hours ago


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f84185%2fhow-would-this-chord-from-rocket-man-be-analyzed%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

VNC viewer RFB protocol error: bad desktop size 0x0I Cannot Type the Key 'd' (lowercase) in VNC Viewer...

Tribunal Administrativo e Fiscal de Mirandela Referências Menu de...

looking for continuous Screen Capture for retroactivly reproducing errors, timeback machineRolling desktop...