Even if / Even though Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara ...
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Even if / Even though
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is “even if…” followed by present or future tense?Usage of 'if' and 'if not' to mean 'and perhaps even/also'“Even were he not to…”Usage of “even if”Subjunctive and conditionalsUnsure what follows after “even if” when the direct speech is transformed into indirect speechHow to use 'as if/ though' in both real and unreal situation?Conditional conundrumEven after + present perfect vs present simpleUse of “may” or “might” and their inherent semantic difference
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Even if/though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them
The correct answer is "Even if" because (as I understand) only 'even if' can be used in conditional sentences.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask them for help, and we wouldn't even if the situation was utterly hopeless which indeed it wasn't.
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask for help and we wouldn't do it, ever. They did help of their own accord (but we hate them anyway).
Am I right or wrong? If the second one is not grammatically correct, what is the correct way to convey the meaning of the second sentence?
Common mistakes at CAE (2017)
Page 43, Test 8 3.1
conditionals
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
add a comment |
Even if/though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them
The correct answer is "Even if" because (as I understand) only 'even if' can be used in conditional sentences.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask them for help, and we wouldn't even if the situation was utterly hopeless which indeed it wasn't.
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask for help and we wouldn't do it, ever. They did help of their own accord (but we hate them anyway).
Am I right or wrong? If the second one is not grammatically correct, what is the correct way to convey the meaning of the second sentence?
Common mistakes at CAE (2017)
Page 43, Test 8 3.1
conditionals
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
add a comment |
Even if/though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them
The correct answer is "Even if" because (as I understand) only 'even if' can be used in conditional sentences.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask them for help, and we wouldn't even if the situation was utterly hopeless which indeed it wasn't.
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask for help and we wouldn't do it, ever. They did help of their own accord (but we hate them anyway).
Am I right or wrong? If the second one is not grammatically correct, what is the correct way to convey the meaning of the second sentence?
Common mistakes at CAE (2017)
Page 43, Test 8 3.1
conditionals
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
Even if/though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them
The correct answer is "Even if" because (as I understand) only 'even if' can be used in conditional sentences.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask them for help, and we wouldn't even if the situation was utterly hopeless which indeed it wasn't.
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
We didn't ask for help and we wouldn't do it, ever. They did help of their own accord (but we hate them anyway).
Am I right or wrong? If the second one is not grammatically correct, what is the correct way to convey the meaning of the second sentence?
Common mistakes at CAE (2017)
Page 43, Test 8 3.1
conditionals
conditionals
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
edited 22 hours ago
Mari-Lou A
62.7k57226466
62.7k57226466
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
asked yesterday
OksanaOksana
212
212
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The difference is whether the antecedent is factual (real) or hypothetical.
Even if places the antecedent (we couldn’t manage without their help) in an irrealis mood: perhaps you can manage without their help, perhaps you can’t - but it supposes you can’t (with even complicating things by subsuming the case where you can). Neither is a fact. Either way, your even if version says that you wouldn’t ask for their help.
Even though has it in a realis mood - the antecedent is fact: you can’t manage without their help. Your even though version doesn’t say whether you’ve asked for their help in the past or whether they have helped or will help, or even whether you accept their help at any time past, present or future. It simply states that you need it but wouldn’t ask for it.
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
add a comment |
Both phrases are idiomatic and synonymous.
Dictionary entries prove this.
For example, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary :
even if
idiom
— used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it
// I'm going to the party even if it rains.
even though
idiom
—used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
// She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
// I'm going even though it may rain.
though
: in spite of the possibility that
: even if
// though I may fail, I will try
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
add a comment |
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Both of the sentences above are perfectly fine, and the CAE book is, unfortunately, wrong.
Notice that in both of these examples, it is possible that the not being able to manage situation may never occur, and may be entirely hypothetical.
There is a clause following the even though/even if in each version. This clause is:
- we couldn't manage without their help
The difference between examples (1) and (2) is that in example (1) it is pre-supposed that this clause is true. In example (2) it is not. It is entirely possible in sentence (2), for example, that we might be able to manage perfecty well without their help.
Sentences with even though present their subordinate clauses as given facts, whereas sentences with even if do not. Consider the following sentences:
Even though Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
Even if Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
In sentence (4) we know that Tom is here. In sentence (5), he may or may not be.
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
add a comment |
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
The difference is whether the antecedent is factual (real) or hypothetical.
Even if places the antecedent (we couldn’t manage without their help) in an irrealis mood: perhaps you can manage without their help, perhaps you can’t - but it supposes you can’t (with even complicating things by subsuming the case where you can). Neither is a fact. Either way, your even if version says that you wouldn’t ask for their help.
Even though has it in a realis mood - the antecedent is fact: you can’t manage without their help. Your even though version doesn’t say whether you’ve asked for their help in the past or whether they have helped or will help, or even whether you accept their help at any time past, present or future. It simply states that you need it but wouldn’t ask for it.
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
add a comment |
The difference is whether the antecedent is factual (real) or hypothetical.
Even if places the antecedent (we couldn’t manage without their help) in an irrealis mood: perhaps you can manage without their help, perhaps you can’t - but it supposes you can’t (with even complicating things by subsuming the case where you can). Neither is a fact. Either way, your even if version says that you wouldn’t ask for their help.
Even though has it in a realis mood - the antecedent is fact: you can’t manage without their help. Your even though version doesn’t say whether you’ve asked for their help in the past or whether they have helped or will help, or even whether you accept their help at any time past, present or future. It simply states that you need it but wouldn’t ask for it.
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
add a comment |
The difference is whether the antecedent is factual (real) or hypothetical.
Even if places the antecedent (we couldn’t manage without their help) in an irrealis mood: perhaps you can manage without their help, perhaps you can’t - but it supposes you can’t (with even complicating things by subsuming the case where you can). Neither is a fact. Either way, your even if version says that you wouldn’t ask for their help.
Even though has it in a realis mood - the antecedent is fact: you can’t manage without their help. Your even though version doesn’t say whether you’ve asked for their help in the past or whether they have helped or will help, or even whether you accept their help at any time past, present or future. It simply states that you need it but wouldn’t ask for it.
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
The difference is whether the antecedent is factual (real) or hypothetical.
Even if places the antecedent (we couldn’t manage without their help) in an irrealis mood: perhaps you can manage without their help, perhaps you can’t - but it supposes you can’t (with even complicating things by subsuming the case where you can). Neither is a fact. Either way, your even if version says that you wouldn’t ask for their help.
Even though has it in a realis mood - the antecedent is fact: you can’t manage without their help. Your even though version doesn’t say whether you’ve asked for their help in the past or whether they have helped or will help, or even whether you accept their help at any time past, present or future. It simply states that you need it but wouldn’t ask for it.
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
answered yesterday
LawrenceLawrence
31.8k563112
31.8k563112
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
add a comment |
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
Hmm. Problem here though. Even if English had moods, the combination of without plus modal could in the even-version would also constitute an irrealis mood. Consider without legs, I couldn't walk. So your description here is not much help, although I know what you're angling at.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
1
1
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
Perhaps you need to consider the concept of presupposition.
– Araucaria
18 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
@Araucaria Thanks for the interesting counterexample. Both the OP’s examples are irrealis (if I may put it that way) if we consider each sentence as a whole. That doesn’t invalidate the observation that there is a difference in the antecedents. Couching the difference in terms of presuppositions, as you suggest, would be a neat abstraction of those antecedents.
– Lawrence
16 hours ago
add a comment |
Both phrases are idiomatic and synonymous.
Dictionary entries prove this.
For example, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary :
even if
idiom
— used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it
// I'm going to the party even if it rains.
even though
idiom
—used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
// She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
// I'm going even though it may rain.
though
: in spite of the possibility that
: even if
// though I may fail, I will try
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
add a comment |
Both phrases are idiomatic and synonymous.
Dictionary entries prove this.
For example, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary :
even if
idiom
— used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it
// I'm going to the party even if it rains.
even though
idiom
—used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
// She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
// I'm going even though it may rain.
though
: in spite of the possibility that
: even if
// though I may fail, I will try
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
add a comment |
Both phrases are idiomatic and synonymous.
Dictionary entries prove this.
For example, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary :
even if
idiom
— used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it
// I'm going to the party even if it rains.
even though
idiom
—used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
// She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
// I'm going even though it may rain.
though
: in spite of the possibility that
: even if
// though I may fail, I will try
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
Both phrases are idiomatic and synonymous.
Dictionary entries prove this.
For example, according to Merriam-Webster's Dictionary :
even if
idiom
— used to stress that something will happen despite something else that might prevent it
// I'm going to the party even if it rains.
even though
idiom
—used as a stronger way to say "though" or "although"
// She stayed with him even though he often mistreated her.
// I'm going even though it may rain.
though
: in spite of the possibility that
: even if
// though I may fail, I will try
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
answered yesterday
user307254user307254
5,3802518
5,3802518
add a comment |
add a comment |
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Both of the sentences above are perfectly fine, and the CAE book is, unfortunately, wrong.
Notice that in both of these examples, it is possible that the not being able to manage situation may never occur, and may be entirely hypothetical.
There is a clause following the even though/even if in each version. This clause is:
- we couldn't manage without their help
The difference between examples (1) and (2) is that in example (1) it is pre-supposed that this clause is true. In example (2) it is not. It is entirely possible in sentence (2), for example, that we might be able to manage perfecty well without their help.
Sentences with even though present their subordinate clauses as given facts, whereas sentences with even if do not. Consider the following sentences:
Even though Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
Even if Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
In sentence (4) we know that Tom is here. In sentence (5), he may or may not be.
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
add a comment |
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Both of the sentences above are perfectly fine, and the CAE book is, unfortunately, wrong.
Notice that in both of these examples, it is possible that the not being able to manage situation may never occur, and may be entirely hypothetical.
There is a clause following the even though/even if in each version. This clause is:
- we couldn't manage without their help
The difference between examples (1) and (2) is that in example (1) it is pre-supposed that this clause is true. In example (2) it is not. It is entirely possible in sentence (2), for example, that we might be able to manage perfecty well without their help.
Sentences with even though present their subordinate clauses as given facts, whereas sentences with even if do not. Consider the following sentences:
Even though Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
Even if Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
In sentence (4) we know that Tom is here. In sentence (5), he may or may not be.
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
add a comment |
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Both of the sentences above are perfectly fine, and the CAE book is, unfortunately, wrong.
Notice that in both of these examples, it is possible that the not being able to manage situation may never occur, and may be entirely hypothetical.
There is a clause following the even though/even if in each version. This clause is:
- we couldn't manage without their help
The difference between examples (1) and (2) is that in example (1) it is pre-supposed that this clause is true. In example (2) it is not. It is entirely possible in sentence (2), for example, that we might be able to manage perfecty well without their help.
Sentences with even though present their subordinate clauses as given facts, whereas sentences with even if do not. Consider the following sentences:
Even though Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
Even if Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
In sentence (4) we know that Tom is here. In sentence (5), he may or may not be.
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
Even though we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Even if we couldn't manage without their help, I wouldn't ask them.
Both of the sentences above are perfectly fine, and the CAE book is, unfortunately, wrong.
Notice that in both of these examples, it is possible that the not being able to manage situation may never occur, and may be entirely hypothetical.
There is a clause following the even though/even if in each version. This clause is:
- we couldn't manage without their help
The difference between examples (1) and (2) is that in example (1) it is pre-supposed that this clause is true. In example (2) it is not. It is entirely possible in sentence (2), for example, that we might be able to manage perfecty well without their help.
Sentences with even though present their subordinate clauses as given facts, whereas sentences with even if do not. Consider the following sentences:
Even though Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
Even if Tom is here, we'll never be able to find him.
In sentence (4) we know that Tom is here. In sentence (5), he may or may not be.
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
edited 9 hours ago
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
answered 15 hours ago
AraucariaAraucaria
35.7k1071151
35.7k1071151
add a comment |
add a comment |
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