I have trouble understanding this fallacy: “If A, then B. Therefore if not-B, then not-A.”Why do...

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I have trouble understanding this fallacy: “If A, then B. Therefore if not-B, then not-A.”


Why do Conditional Semantics matter?What kind of conditional does Nozick use in his theory of knowledge?Are all sufficient conditions necessary?If G is absent whenever F is absent, then F is a sufficient condition for GIf F is a sufficient condition for G, is lacking G a sufficient condition for lacking F?For preventing something, why do we usually search for the Necessary and not the Sufficient Conditions?Is there a logical system that accounts for cause and effect relationship?What is the difference between Conditional and Logical consequence in everyday language?What is the name of this fallacy? (not A imples the value of B is unknown, therefore A)What fallacy accepts P and P → Q but rejects Q (denies modus ponens)?













5















About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










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  • 34





    Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

    – virmaior
    yesterday






  • 1





    This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

    – LAU
    yesterday











  • @terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

    – alephzero
    22 hours ago








  • 3





    "if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago








  • 5





    The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago
















5















About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










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  • 34





    Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

    – virmaior
    yesterday






  • 1





    This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

    – LAU
    yesterday











  • @terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

    – alephzero
    22 hours ago








  • 3





    "if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago








  • 5





    The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago














5












5








5


2






About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?










share|improve this question







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About "If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A":



From what I understand the conclusion is wrong, because it is not said that A is a sufficient condition for B, (and there may be other conditions required for B, so if they are not present B won't be the case, even if A is the case.).



But I have trouble finding a real life example to this and I'm not sure if it is the consept that I don't understand or it is just the way we express ourselves in natural language that causes the confusion.



Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)



So turning the router on is a necessary condition for having internet but can you then say: "If you turn the router on (A), there will be internet (B)." Saying that is just is not true. So is it just that we don't have a good way to express sufficient conditions (in comparison to necessary conditions) or is it that I just don't understanding some fundamental concept (or both)?







logic fallacies






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  • 34





    Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

    – virmaior
    yesterday






  • 1





    This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

    – LAU
    yesterday











  • @terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

    – alephzero
    22 hours ago








  • 3





    "if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago








  • 5





    The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago














  • 34





    Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

    – virmaior
    yesterday






  • 1





    This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

    – LAU
    yesterday











  • @terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

    – alephzero
    22 hours ago








  • 3





    "if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago








  • 5





    The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

    – Mauro ALLEGRANZA
    20 hours ago








34




34





Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

– virmaior
yesterday





Not completely following the example you raise, but If A, then B. Therefore, if not-B, then not-A is not a fallacy. This is contraposition( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraposition) and it's always valid...

– virmaior
yesterday




1




1





This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

– LAU
yesterday





This is the contrapositive of the afirmation A => B, i.e., it is logically equivalent, not a fallacy. Maybe the fallacy that could happen is ~A => ~B (where ~ = not).

– LAU
yesterday













@terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

– alephzero
22 hours ago







@terdon That's not what the OP and virmaior said. "All mothers are women" does mean that "all men" (literally "all not-women") "are not mothers". Of course in this example you have to limit the discourse to be about humans, because other wise the premise is false: a female cat can also be called the "mother" of her kittens in ordinary English, but a cat is not a woman.

– alephzero
22 hours ago






3




3





"if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
20 hours ago







"if A, then B" and "if not-B, then not-A" are the same. So, what "fallacy" ?

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
20 hours ago






5




5





The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
20 hours ago





The correct example will be : "If internet is available (A), the router must be on (B). So, "if the router is off (not-B), that means that internet is not available (not-A)"

– Mauro ALLEGRANZA
20 hours ago










9 Answers
9






active

oldest

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16














There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




Raining -> Umbrella




However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



Let's apply it to your example:




"In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



So let's word it differently:




If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



InternetConnected -> RouterOn



A -> B




But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



Not(B) -> Not(A)




Hope this helps! :)






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  • That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

    – Davislor
    3 hours ago



















9














‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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    8














    You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



    Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



    Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



    Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



    I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
    That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






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      4














      No fallacy



      Router necessary for internet


      Can be restated



      Internet sufficient for router


      Let's restate the second more elaborately



      Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
      that the router (has to be) working




      In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens






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        2














        "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



        The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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          2














          As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




          Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




          What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the a contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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            1














            Your confusion might stem from the fact that logical implications don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




            If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




            This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




            If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




            This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



            We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



            | a | b | a -> b |
            +---+---+--------+
            | F | F | T |
            | F | T | T |
            | T | F | F |
            | T | T | T |


            So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




            1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

            2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

            3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

            4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


            Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



            | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
            +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
            | F | F | T | T | T | T |
            | F | T | T | F | T | T |
            | T | F | F | T | F | F |
            | T | T | T | F | F | T |


            The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are equivalent.



            In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




            If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




            This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




            1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

            2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

            3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

            4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


            In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




            If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].







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              0














              It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



              Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



              A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



              B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



              Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



              But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



              Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



              In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






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              • In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                – Kyle Miller
                16 hours ago



















              0














              Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



              "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



              "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






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                9 Answers
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                16














                There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                Raining -> Umbrella




                However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                Let's apply it to your example:




                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                So let's word it differently:




                If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                A -> B




                But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                Not(B) -> Not(A)




                Hope this helps! :)






                share|improve this answer








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                • That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                  – Davislor
                  3 hours ago
















                16














                There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                Raining -> Umbrella




                However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                Let's apply it to your example:




                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                So let's word it differently:




                If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                A -> B




                But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                Not(B) -> Not(A)




                Hope this helps! :)






                share|improve this answer








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                • That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                  – Davislor
                  3 hours ago














                16












                16








                16







                There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                Raining -> Umbrella




                However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                Let's apply it to your example:




                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                So let's word it differently:




                If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                A -> B




                But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                Not(B) -> Not(A)




                Hope this helps! :)






                share|improve this answer








                New contributor




                eurieka is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                There are multiple good answers here, including references to modus tollens and the contrapositive (both of which are correct).



                What helps me understand this concept is a more intuitive/layman's perspective.



                Say that if it's raining, you ALWAYS bring an umbrella outside. (Assume that you have a perfect memory). Therefore we have:




                Raining -> Umbrella




                However, if you have an umbrella, does it mean that it's raining? Well, no. You might be bringing an umbrella for a trip, using it as a parasol in the scorching summer sun, or even simply returning it to a friend.



                But if you don't have an umbrella, is it raining? No, and this is supported by modus tollens/contrapositive. That is to say:




                Not(Umbrella) -> Not(Raining)




                And that makes sense to us. If it were raining, you would've brought your umbrella. We said that you ALWAYS bring an umbrella if it's raining. So if you don't have it, it can't possibly be raining.



                Let's apply it to your example:




                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if
                there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)"




                This is actually not formulated properly; A and B have been reversed. This is probably why it's confusing. (Intuitively, it's in line with what you've been saying: if we don't have Internet, it's not necessarily because of the router.)



                So let's word it differently:




                If we have an Internet connection (A), the router must be on (B).



                InternetConnected -> RouterOn



                A -> B




                But if the router isn't on, then we can't possibly connect to the Internet. (How would we even do that?) We know this is the case, because we said that if we're connected to the Internet, the router MUST be on.




                Not(RouterOn) -> Not(InternetConnected)



                Not(B) -> Not(A)




                Hope this helps! :)







                share|improve this answer








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                answered 21 hours ago









                euriekaeurieka

                1612




                1612




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                • That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                  – Davislor
                  3 hours ago



















                • That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                  – Davislor
                  3 hours ago

















                That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                – Davislor
                3 hours ago





                That very example, why someone might carry an umbrella, turns out to be relevant to the JFK assassination!

                – Davislor
                3 hours ago











                9














                ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






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                  9














                  ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                  By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






                  share|improve this answer








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                    9












                    9








                    9







                    ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                    By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).






                    share|improve this answer








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                    ‘If not B then not A’ is the contrapositive of ‘If A then B’ and is logically valid.



                    By saying ‘if A then B’, the author is saying that whenever A happens, B will definitely happen. Hence, if B does not happen, it is clear that A did not happen (if not B then not A).







                    share|improve this answer








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                    answered yesterday









                    danielloiddanielloid

                    1911




                    1911




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                        8














                        You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                        Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                        Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                        Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                        I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                        That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






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                          8














                          You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                          Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                          Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                          Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                          I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                          That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






                          share|improve this answer








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                            8












                            8








                            8







                            You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                            Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                            Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                            Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                            I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                            That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.






                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




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                            You are correct: The statement does not show a sufficient condition!



                            Consider this statement: "If (A) it rains, then (B) the street will be wet."



                            Assuming the street is always wet after it rained (because it is not covered by a roof or something), the contraposition would hold true!



                            Contraposition: "If the street is not wet, it did not rain"



                            I think what is giving you troubles is that the street in this example can be wet without rain (someone sprayed water onto it), therefore the street is not always wet just because of rain.
                            That's called an inverse and differentiation can sometimes be hard.







                            share|improve this answer








                            New contributor




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                            answered 23 hours ago









                            Moritz KMoritz K

                            811




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                                4














                                No fallacy



                                Router necessary for internet


                                Can be restated



                                Internet sufficient for router


                                Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                that the router (has to be) working




                                In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens






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                                  4














                                  No fallacy



                                  Router necessary for internet


                                  Can be restated



                                  Internet sufficient for router


                                  Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                  Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                  that the router (has to be) working




                                  In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens






                                  share|improve this answer










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                                    4












                                    4








                                    4







                                    No fallacy



                                    Router necessary for internet


                                    Can be restated



                                    Internet sufficient for router


                                    Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                    Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                    that the router (has to be) working




                                    In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens






                                    share|improve this answer










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                                    No fallacy



                                    Router necessary for internet


                                    Can be restated



                                    Internet sufficient for router


                                    Let's restate the second more elaborately



                                    Internet (found to be) working is sufficient (evidence)
                                    that the router (has to be) working




                                    In addition to contrapositive suggested by @virmalor you may like to see also modus tollens







                                    share|improve this answer










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                                    share|improve this answer








                                    edited yesterday





















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                                    answered yesterday









                                    RusiRusi

                                    762




                                    762




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                                        2














                                        "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                        The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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                                          2














                                          "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                          The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






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                                            2












                                            2








                                            2







                                            "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                            The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)






                                            share|improve this answer








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                                            "In order to have internet, the router must be on" corresponds to the implication "if there is internet, the router is on." The contrapositive is "if the router is not on, there is no internet."



                                            The router being on is a necessary condition for internet, while having internet is a sufficient condition for the router being on. (It can be tricky translating statements to implications, especially when there are modals like "must"! The translation reduces the statement to its barest essence with a material implication, and the translation is usually lossy.)







                                            share|improve this answer








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                                            answered 16 hours ago









                                            Kyle MillerKyle Miller

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                                                2














                                                As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the a contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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                                                  2














                                                  As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                  Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                  What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the a contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






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                                                    2












                                                    2








                                                    2







                                                    As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                    Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                    What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the a contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.






                                                    share|improve this answer








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                                                    As others have said, there is no fallacy in a contrapositive argument, i.e. "if A then B. Not B, therefore not A". But your example is faulty:




                                                    Here is an example I could think of, in natural language: "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A). So, if there is no internet (not-B), that means the router is not on (not-A)" (Which is not true because there may be a problem with the providers, for example.)




                                                    What you have written is "if B then A. Not B, therefore not A"--which is of course invalid reasoning. A better way of putting an example of the a contrapositive into natural language would be "If we have an internet [connection], then the router is on. The router is off [not on], therefore we do not have an internet [connection]." Which is a valid argument of the contrapositive form.







                                                    share|improve this answer








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                                                    answered 13 hours ago









                                                    Mike MaxwellMike Maxwell

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                                                        1














                                                        Your confusion might stem from the fact that logical implications don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                                        If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                                        This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                                        If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                                        This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                                        We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                                        | a | b | a -> b |
                                                        +---+---+--------+
                                                        | F | F | T |
                                                        | F | T | T |
                                                        | T | F | F |
                                                        | T | T | T |


                                                        So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                                        1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                                        2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                                        3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                                        4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                                        Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                                        | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                                        +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                                        | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                                        | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                                        | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                                        | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                                        The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are equivalent.



                                                        In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                                        If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                                        This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                                        1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                                        2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                                        3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                                        4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                                        In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                                        If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].







                                                        share|improve this answer










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                                                        Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                          1














                                                          Your confusion might stem from the fact that logical implications don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                                          If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                                          This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                                          If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                                          This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                                          We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                                          | a | b | a -> b |
                                                          +---+---+--------+
                                                          | F | F | T |
                                                          | F | T | T |
                                                          | T | F | F |
                                                          | T | T | T |


                                                          So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                                          1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                                          2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                                          3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                                          4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                                          Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                                          | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                                          +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                                          | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                                          | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                                          | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                                          | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                                          The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are equivalent.



                                                          In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                                          If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                                          This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                                          1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                                          2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                                          3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                                          4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                                          In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                                          If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].







                                                          share|improve this answer










                                                          New contributor




                                                          Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                            1












                                                            1








                                                            1







                                                            Your confusion might stem from the fact that logical implications don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                                            If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                                            This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                                            If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                                            This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                                            We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                                            | a | b | a -> b |
                                                            +---+---+--------+
                                                            | F | F | T |
                                                            | F | T | T |
                                                            | T | F | F |
                                                            | T | T | T |


                                                            So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                                            1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                                            2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                                            3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                                            4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                                            Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                                            | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                                            +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                                            | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                                            | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                                            | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                                            | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                                            The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are equivalent.



                                                            In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                                            If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                                            This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                                            1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                                            2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                                            3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                                            4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                                            In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                                            If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].







                                                            share|improve this answer










                                                            New contributor




                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                                            Your confusion might stem from the fact that logical implications don't always correspond intuitively to cause and effect in the real world. I'll get back to your example later; for now, let's focus on a more intuitive implication:




                                                            If [a: there is fire], then [b: there is smoke].




                                                            This is a natural process in which the cause (fire) always produces the effect (smoke), and that's a situation that can be described with an implication. (In the real world, there are substances that burn without smoke, so let's constrain ourselves to wood fires.) In this situation, you probably agree that the contrapositive is true as well:




                                                            If [not(b): there is no smoke], then [not(a): there is no fire].




                                                            This makes intuitive sense - we're not observing the effect that is always produced by the cause, so the cause can't be occurring.



                                                            We can formally prove why the contrapositive is equivalent to the original statement. Here is the truth table that defines implications (T for true and F for false):



                                                            | a | b | a -> b |
                                                            +---+---+--------+
                                                            | F | F | T |
                                                            | F | T | T |
                                                            | T | F | F |
                                                            | T | T | T |


                                                            So an implication is only false if the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false. Let's interpret this via the example. Our implication is intended to be a description of the real world, so all the true rows should correspond to situations that can happen in the real world, and all the false rows should correspond to situations that can not:




                                                            1. It can happen that there is no fire and no smoke.

                                                            2. It can happen that there is no fire, but there is smoke (which might be produced by something else than fire).

                                                            3. It can not happen that there is fire but no smoke.

                                                            4. It can happen that there is both fire and smoke.


                                                            Now, let's add the contrapositive to the truth table:



                                                            | a | b | a -> b | not(b) | not(a) | not(b) -> not(a) |
                                                            +---+---+--------+--------+--------+------------------+
                                                            | F | F | T | T | T | T |
                                                            | F | T | T | F | T | T |
                                                            | T | F | F | T | F | F |
                                                            | T | T | T | F | F | T |


                                                            The not(b) -> not(a) is identical to the a -> b column, so the two statements are equivalent.



                                                            In your example, you seem to think that the router is the cause that produces the effect of internet. However, unlike in the fire and smoke example, internet isn't a guaranteed effect of the router alone, and therefore there is not an implication from router to internet. Perhaps surprisingly, there is an implication, but it goes the other way. The router is just one of several necessary ingredients for having internet, and in an implication, the necessary part goes on the right hand side - so even though the router is one of the technical "causes" of the internet, the implication looks like this:




                                                            If [a: you have internet], then [b: the router is on].




                                                            This unintuitive order is easier to understand if you stop thinking about an implication as the left hand side being a physical cause of the right hand side, and just think of it as the statement "it is not the case that the left hand side is true while the right hand side is false". Let's confirm that this is a correct description of the real world (the only thing that shouldn't happen is that the left hand side is true and the right hand side is false):




                                                            1. It can happen that you don't have internet and the router is off.

                                                            2. It can happen that you don't have internet, but the router is on (so you've got a tech problem somewhere).

                                                            3. It can not happen that you've got internet but the router is off.

                                                            4. It can happen that you've got internet and the router is on.


                                                            In this example, the contrapositive is actually the more intuitive one:




                                                            If [not(b): the router is off], then [not(a): you don't have internet].








                                                            share|improve this answer










                                                            New contributor




                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                            share|improve this answer



                                                            share|improve this answer








                                                            edited 2 hours ago





















                                                            New contributor




                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                            answered 2 hours ago









                                                            Aasmund EldhusetAasmund Eldhuset

                                                            1113




                                                            1113




                                                            New contributor




                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                                                            New contributor





                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                                            Aasmund Eldhuset is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                                            Check out our Code of Conduct.























                                                                0














                                                                It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                share|improve this answer


























                                                                • In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                  – Kyle Miller
                                                                  16 hours ago
















                                                                0














                                                                It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                share|improve this answer


























                                                                • In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                  – Kyle Miller
                                                                  16 hours ago














                                                                0












                                                                0








                                                                0







                                                                It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."






                                                                share|improve this answer















                                                                It's not a fallacy, but it's only guaranteed to hold in Aristotelian logic, where we have the law of the excluded middle, which states that every proposition is either true or false.



                                                                Example: Anyone who is a Christian believes that Jesus is their savior.



                                                                A is the proposition that my dog is a Christian.



                                                                B is the proposition that my dog has a belief in Jesus as her savior.



                                                                Now B is false, because my dog has no belief in Jesus as her savior. If you're working in Aristotelian logic, then it's a perfectly valid logical conclusion to say that my dog is not a Christian: if B is false, then A must be false.



                                                                But it's at least as reasonable to apply non-Aristotelian logic here. We can say that Christian and non-Christian are silly categories to apply to a dog. Then we say that neither A nor not-A is true. The truth-value of A is undefined. The fact that B is false tells us that A is not true, but it doesn't tell us that not-A is true.



                                                                Most mathematicians spend most or all of their time working within Aristotelian logic, but that doesn't mean that non-Aristotelian logic is invalid or not accepted by the mathematical community. Similarly, some people play basketball, some play tennis, and some play both. There is no controversy over which set of rules is the right set of rules, and everyone understands implicitly which set of rules is agreed upon when they're playing.



                                                                In most cases in everyday life, Aristotelian logic just isn't a good model of how we reason about the world. If a friend asserts that jazz is more fun than pop music, I would probably answer, "Well, yes and no..."







                                                                share|improve this answer














                                                                share|improve this answer



                                                                share|improve this answer








                                                                edited 19 hours ago

























                                                                answered 20 hours ago









                                                                Ben CrowellBen Crowell

                                                                19116




                                                                19116













                                                                • In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                  – Kyle Miller
                                                                  16 hours ago



















                                                                • In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                  – Kyle Miller
                                                                  16 hours ago

















                                                                In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                – Kyle Miller
                                                                16 hours ago





                                                                In logic without the law of the excluded middle (LEM), (A implies B) implies (not B implies not A) works just fine, where "not A" means something like "a proof for A would yield a contradiction"---it's the converse of this that has an issue. You can get (not B implies not A) implies (A implies not not B), but without LEM you might not be able to eliminate the double negative. In your example, it's seems you're deriving an implication from a truth table, which as far as I know relies on (not B implies not A) implies (A implies B), which is not necessarily the OP's question.

                                                                – Kyle Miller
                                                                16 hours ago











                                                                0














                                                                Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






                                                                share|improve this answer




























                                                                  0














                                                                  Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                  "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                  "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






                                                                  share|improve this answer


























                                                                    0












                                                                    0








                                                                    0







                                                                    Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                    "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                    "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."






                                                                    share|improve this answer













                                                                    Your translation from natural English to formal logic is where you go wrong.



                                                                    "If-A then B" precisely means that A is a sufficient condition for B. - Ie if we have case A we can know that we also have case B.



                                                                    "In order to have internet (B), the router must be on (A)." describes a necessary condition. This can be written as "Only if A then B" or "If B then A". The contrapositive would be "If Not-A then Not-B"; Ie. "If the router is not on then we do not have internet."







                                                                    share|improve this answer












                                                                    share|improve this answer



                                                                    share|improve this answer










                                                                    answered 3 hours ago









                                                                    TaemyrTaemyr

                                                                    1514




                                                                    1514






















                                                                        user18894 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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